[UPDATE: Meanwhile, here in Virginia, we have an example of why anti-discrimination laws are needed for gay people. See here for more. Utterly despicable.]
[UPDATE #2: Richardson definitely lost this debate, and I don't care about Gravel. Also, where were Biden and Dodd? "Scheduling conflicts?" Yeah right.
Who won? Well, in a way Kucinich did because he is 100% in sync with the HRC. But Kucinich has no chance of being elected, so who cares. Plus, I'm sorry, but he's just weird. That leaves Obama, Edwards, and Clinton, and I think all three did fine. Which one of those three won the debate, I don't know. Edwards was very strong against Ann Coulter - excellent. Obama was pushed hard on the word "marriage" but held his ground. Clinton, as always, was well prepared, articulate, and comfortable, although I don't understand her states' rights argument at all. Maybe slight edge to Edwards tonight, I dunno. What do you think?]
But I have Thelma Drake on the DU homepage :)
www.democraticunderground.com
First candidate, Barack Obama.
Obama thanks HRC and Logo for this "historic moment" for LGBT community and for America.
Joe Solmonese asks about same-sex marriage. What place does church have in government sanctioned civil marriages.
Obama: Government has to treat all citizens equally. When you're a black guy named Barack Obama, you know what it's like to be on the outside. Rights conferred by state should be equal. Opposed DOMA. I'm a strong supporter of a strong version of civil unions. The church shouldn't be making these determinations when it comes to legal rights conferred by the state. Individual denominations can decide which unions they recognize. Freedom of religions, separation of church and state. Unacceptable not to give rights to same sex couples.
Solmonese: Civil marriage?
Obama: Disentangle the word "marriage" which has religious connotations to some people from civil benefits. Would support a civil union that provides all the benefits of a legally sanctioned marriage.
Solmonese: Sounds like "separate but equal."
Obama: When my parents got married, it would have been illegal in a number of states in the South. It's something I understand, care about. It's not for me to suggest that you shouldn't be concerned about these issues. My job as President is to make sure rights are enforced.
Moderator: Religion seems to own the word "marriage." Makes it seem like a lesser thing.
Obama: As I propose it, it wouldn't be a lesser thing from my perspective. Semantics might be important for some. Fully enforce civil unions. That would be enormous progress.
Melissa Etheridge: Privileged, honored to be here. You have a reputation of being an incredible orator. I see you speaking to a very divided America. The last 8 years, we've been subject to a great fear that has divided Americans. If you're elected President, what are you going to do to bring this country back together.
Obama: I got into politics in part because I don't like people looking down on other people. It bothers me. Hopefulness, belief that there's a core decency to most Americans. Founding documents had a set of universal truths. Key question for next President is can we tap back into core decency, appeal to "better angels of our nature." There are no red states, there are no blue states. We've got gay friends in the red states, play little league in the blue states. People have gay friends, gay family members, somehow our politics creates craziness and fear. Job of President to help people recognize themselves in each other. Washington press corps says I'm so naive, I'm a hopemonger. But I believe it.
Etheridge: Grew up in the Midwest, believing in our country. Equality to everyone. My creator made me what I am. As you lead, don't be afraid.
Jonathan Capehart: Homophobia problem in black community, how are you going to talk to them about that?
Obama: I've already done so. At Howard debate, I specifically raised homophobia in our community as an impediment to dealing with AIDS. I talk about GLBT issues not just to HRC. Gay marriage issue has been used to divide, distract. I haven't seen any evidence of a marriage being broken up because of two women or two men holding hands. If you think that's more important than the fact that black men don't have any jobs, then I profoundly disagree with you. When there's truthtelling involved, people respond, as long as you don't come at people in a heavy handed way. Black community has a diversity of opinion. Some people have elevated one line in Romans over the Sermon on the Mount. This has been a political football that has been used, it's got to stop.
Capehart: Recent poll shows that 44% of young people favor same sex marriage. How can you run as a candidate of change when your position on same sex marriage is decidedly old school.
Obama: We could have this discussion all night. I have a track record. What I have focused on is making sure that the rights provided by Federal government, state and local governments are ones provided to everybody. I don't make promises I can't keep. On this issue, I have been at the forefront of any of the Presidential candidates.
Moderator: Fight for GLBT civil rights on part with African Americans civil rights?
Obama: If people are being treated unfairly and unequally, that needs to be fixed. Issues being faced are different than African Americans under Jim Crow, but there are parallels. It's important not to look at the black candidate and wonder whether or not he's going to be more or less sympathetic to these issues because he's black. This is the cause of my life, making sure that everyone's treated fairly. Expansive view of America, everyone working together.
Obama summary: Pleasure, this went too quick. All the candidates in this race are going to be terrific on these issues compared to the candidates in the other party right now. That's unfortunate because this shouldn't be a partisan issue. I don't just talk about these issues where it's convenient. I spoke about these issues in most important speech of my life, I didn't have to. I'm willing to talk about these issues even when it's hard...to evangelicals or in black churches. Political courage I hope you recognize.
How the hell are you transcribing all this?
You da man!
Melissa Etheridge: Your wife and I have a lot in common, suffering through cancer, wish her the best. Both her and I are fortunate to be able to afford the best health care. Health care needs of gay and lesbian couples who can't depend on partner's health care because they're not a legal spouse.
Edwards: Those rights should be available to gay and lesbian couples. Universal health care plan, rights should be the same for gay and lesbian couples as for straight couples. A few weeks I was at LA gay and lesbian center...message from my visit there important for America to hear: I met a group of young people who were homeless because they came out of the closet and parents kicked them out of their home. Without that place, where would these young people go? It can't be that in America, that can be ok. It was moving. That kind of experience would have a huge impact on the American people if they could see that.
Etheridge: Seems like that's had a huge effect on you because I've heard that you were uncomfortable around gay people.
Edwards: That's not true, I'm perfectly comfortable.
Etheridge: I have children in grade school. Why do they have two mommies. Should public schools teach about LGBT kids, families?
Edwards: Sure. Kids who go to public schools need to understand that these are American families just like every American families. We need to allow gay and lesbian couples same right to adopt children. Important for kids that their peers understand what's happening. Children can be mean and cruel. We as adults have responsibility to make sure they're educated, that this is a good thing.
Moderator: What grade would you introduce this?
Edwards: Not sure, but there is a place that it's appropriate.
Jonathan Capehart: Gays and lesbians used as a scare tactic in 2004, Dems didn't do anything to stop that.
Edwards: Right wing uses scare tactics to divide Americans. It's so important to oppose this hate mongering. I was proud of Elizabeth for taking on Ann Coulter. I have seen the impact of hate mongering. If you stand quietly by and let it happen, it takes hold...people believe it's ok to use the language Ann Coulter used, that Republicans use to divide America. It's bad for America for us to let anybody speaking to the American people use these issues to divide us. Need to stand up strong and firm and denounce it.
Moderator: Take on Ann Coulter?
Edwards: I think what Ann Coulter does is the worst kind of public discourse. She demeans everything all the rest of us do. I think it is intended to go to the lowest common denominator in the American people and to divide us. If you stand quietly by, this hatred will get a foothold.
Solmonese: City manager in Largo, Florida...when it was revealed that she was transgendered, she was fired. What would you do with a staff member who said they were transgendered.
Edwards: I would support them in every possible way. We need powerful anti-discrimination laws in America. What is it you're willing to do on a personal level? I know in my heart and soul that I would. I had issues with race that were extraordinarily difficult in the place where I grew up.
Solmonese: Opposition to same sex marriage. What is within your religion?
Edwards: I shouldn't have said that. I believe to my core in equality across the board. I listened to your discussion with Barack Obama, and it makes perfect sense to me that gays and lesbians would say "civil unions, great." It stops short of real equality. I think from my perspective it is wrong to impose faith beliefs on the American people. I believe in separation of church and state. These isseus are part of my heart, soul and core. I will fight every day both in campaign and as President.
Solmonese: What is at the core of your resistance to same sex marriage?
Edwards: The truth is that my position on same sex marriage has not changed. I do believe strongly in civil unions, need to get rid of DOMA and Don't Ask Don't Tell. Both of those have been wrong since they began, not just now. Today, I do not support same sex marriage.
Viewer question from Jason Daniel Knight about Don't Ask Don't Tell. How can you lift that?
Edwards: I think President of United States can get rid of Don't Ask Don't Tell. It's not the job of the generals to make this determination, it's the job of the President. I'm firmly committed to eliminating Don't Ask Don't Tell.
Edwards summary: You're so important. America owes you a debt of gratitude. One America - we have a lot of work to do, and nobody understands that better than people in this room. Employer should not be able to fire someone over their sexual orientation. To have someone brutally murdered because of their sexual orientation...we're better than this. The real changes in America didn't start in the Oval Office, but with people who had courage, who marched and spoke up, and you're going to change this country along with the President of the United States.
Kucinich: I represent Main Street America.
Jonathan Capehart: You're for everything the LGBT community supports. Is there anything the LGBT community wants that you're against.
Kucinich: Keep those contributions coming. No.
Jonathan: You're one of two candidates who supports same-sex marriage.
Kucinich: This is a question about whether you really believe in equality. Equal sign inside a heart. No power greater than human love. People who love each other must have opportunity to express that in a way that's meaningful. This isn't even a close question.
Jonathan: Obama and Edwards don't truly oppose same sex marriage, they're just playing politics?
Kucinich: I stand for real equality. This is part of an American tradition. All are created equal - foundational prinicple of our country. The greatest commandment is love. Love has that transformative power.
Moderator: You're so evolved for a member of Congress. You're at the end of your journey. When did you start feeling this way?
Kucinich: When I was mayor of Cleveland, I was attacked for hiring a police chief who was sympathetic to gays. Who cares? Every one of us, through taking a stand, has the potential to help others evolve. We can help lift up the whole nation - equality, peace, economic and social justice. I recognize solitary journeys of courage.
Melissa Etheridge: They told me not to faun over you, but it's kind of hard not to. I hope you always run for President until you're elected. This country really needs a leader, it's so refreshing. Medicinal marijuana question.
Kucinich: Took me 5 times to be elected to Congress. Medicinal marijuana - it's a matter between doctors and patients. Compassion requires that government supports that. We should be taking a compassionate approach. This whole issue of drugs in our society is misplaced. Need to look at it more as a medical, health issue than as a criminal justice issue. I'm the only person in this race who is standing for a not-for-profit health care system where long-term care is totally covered. If someone has AIDS, they're totally covered.
Moderator: It may takes you 5 times. How are you going to get elected President?
Kucinich: I led the effort 5 years ago in challenging march towards war with Iraq. The rest of the country's come in my direction on this. Being President means doing the right thing the first time. I'm at the center of all of those discussions. My candidacy is transforming the race and will transform the nation, because my heart is clean. I have ability to pierce that vale of falsehood. World is interconnected, interdependent. Imperative of human unity.
Viewer question (Robert Armstrong)...AIDS prevention outreach, Ryan White act
Kucinich: I'm co-author of bill that creates Medicare for all. Sex education. Parents should have right to opt out. President ready to embrace people with AIDS. Not for profit health care system. President who is wise eough, courageous enough to take on this issue.
Joe Solmonese: Thank you for being an outspoken advocate. Employment Nondiscrimination Act. This issue affects everybody. Separate but unequal is the basis for discrimination. It's not right that 1+1=0. Real equality means you take a stand. Equality of opportunity without regard to race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.
Kucinich: I send you great love. We need a President to be an exemplar of equality, understand love in deepest sense. I can't imagine meeting love of my life and then be told no, you can't be married. That would be devastating. Because I understand that, I'm ready to be your President. I love all of you, thanks so much.
Kucinich: Acknowledge role of Barney Frank.
Etheridge: You are unusual for your generation of straight white men.
Gravel: Most of my generation is wrong. 5 years from now, marriage issue will be nonissue in Presidential campaign. Gay marriage would win a popular vote. Marriage is not a religious issue. There's nothing to fear. Love, love, love. :) Why are people supporting Obama, Edwards, Clinton who can't get their arms around gay marriage? They're playing it safe. Gays are not second class citizens. I'm not afraid of this issue. It shows the competition to be a little weak. No reason why you shouldn't be able to go to a liquor store and buy marijuana. Decriminalize hard drugs. End the drug war. Assert your rights.
Jonathan: You said you'd focus less on marriage and more on what's achievable. When will same sex marriage be achieavable?
Richardson: Nation is on a path to full inclusion, President must lead that effort. Civil unions with full marriage rights, domestic partnerships. Redress gross imbalances of past - get rid of Don't Ask Don't Tell. When you're asking people to fight and die, the last thing you need to do is give them a lecture on sexual orientation. Get rid of DOMA. No Child Left Behind - hurts diversity education. Hate crimes laws. Need to bring country to position where there's public support.
Jonathan: Why did you vote for DOMA?
Richardson: I was chief deputy whip of Democrats, Clinton was President. At that time, objective was to fight a huge assault for a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage. On Don't Ask Don't Tell, I voted against it because it made no sense to me. We need to bring the country along. President who knows how to get things done, who recognizes that the country is moving in a journey of more inclusion. States are moving a lot faster.
Jonathan: Imus show... should you not be held responsible for using that word?
Richardson: I apologize, meant no harm when I said that. I was caught off guard. I apologize. Look at my actions not words. As governor, I passed a hate crimes act that included transgender. Passed domestic partnerships avoiding discrimination. Called a special session to expand domestic partnership. I've appointed cabinet members who are gay and lesbian. I've made plenty of mistakes. Look at what we've done, not just speeches and 10-point plan. I have fully funded HIV/AIDS initiative.
Moderator: Everyone gets one mistake on Imus.
Richardson: New Mexico is one of 6 states that doesn't have DOMA.
Solmonese: That certainly does count. If New Mexico legislature handed you a marriage bill, would you sign it?
Richardson: I'm pushing it hard to pass domestic partnerships. I can give the most flowery speeches, but I'm in this business to get things done. In my heart, I'm doing what is achievable. I'm not there yet, the country isn't there yet. Doesn't mean that I'm closed on this issue.
Solmonese: Immigration laws, same sex couples can't sponsor their partner.
Richardson: Should include all people.
Etheridge: Do you think homosexuality is a choice or biological?
Richardson: It's a choice.
Etheridge: I don't think you understand the question.
Richardson: I'm not a scientist. I see gays and lesbians as people. I don't like to categorize people.
Etheridge: Gays are born that way, creator makes them that way. How can there be anything but full equal rights?
Richardson: That's my view. As a Hispanic, I understand that issue of inequality. Every human being deserves the same rights, the same niche in society. I've always held these ideals very high.
Moderator: People opposed to GLBT equality say it's a "lifestyle choice," you're just choosing to be a certain way. What do you say to those people?
Richardson: It's not a matter of preferences, it's a matter of equality. I will strive to move this country in the direction of full equality for everyone.
To Melissa: I admire your efforts, just tell Al Gore not to run, I'm moving up. I have the most experience, represent change, am electable. Look at my record as governor, Congressman, see what I have done. I've delivered as governor, would do the same as President. Best barometer is your record, not your speeches or 10-point plans.
I had been thinking good things about him recently, but he just took a giant step back in my opinion tonight.
Joe: You've said in past setting like this that you'd like to repeal Don't Ask Don't Tell. Why haven't you introduced legislation to repeal this policy?
Clinton: Thanks. We didn't have a chance with Republican Congress and George Bush as President. I want to get this done. Lay the groundwork so that when we do have a change in the White House - couldn't happen too soon! - we'll be able to move on that. One of my highest priorities. I came out against Don't Ask Don't Tell in 1999. Staff Sgt. Alba, first Marine wounded in Iraq, recipient of Purple Heart, 15 years ago could have been refused opportunity to serve, could have been court martialed, even threatened with criminal action. We have moved a long way on this and other issues. At the time, Don't Ask Don't Tell was an advance, but wasn't implemented appropriately, often at great cost. In 1999, it just struck me that it wasn't working, what we needed to do is to judge people on conduct not status. Evenhanded across entire services. We're beginning to see some changes. In 1993, it was so emotional in the military and Congress. Now it's beginning to change. Gen. Shalikashvili has come out in favor of a change. Colin Powell has begun to say maybe we should rethink this.
Joe: What is at the heart of your opposition to same sex marriage.
Clinton: Very positive about civil unions. It's a personal position. We believe in equality. How we get to full equality is the debate we're having. I'm absolutely in favor of civil unions with full equality. Strong supporter of letting the states maintain jurisdiction over marriage. Referenda enshrining discrimination in state constitutions. Now, 2 1/2 years later, we're seeing other states take different approaches. Stopping Federal Marriage Amendment gave states breathing room to make different decisions. Repeal Section 3 of DOMA.
Joe: Can you sympathize with frustration about this "states rights issue" argument. In civil rights era, it was used against us. Can you see how this would resonate the same way in our community?
Clinton: Absolutely. You're doing exactly what you need to do and should do. People in the states are moving much more rapidly to deal with inequalities than at federal level. I'm not sure we could have defeated constitutional amendment without DOMA. Republicans cynically using marriage as political tool. I'm very optimistic. I don't hear it as I travel around the country. Marriage amendment was a strictly cynical ploy on their parts. People are now saying, maybe we don't want to do that.
Etheridge: I came out publicly during Bill Clinton's inaugural week. It was a very hopeful time for LGBT Americans. In the years that followed, our hearts were broken, we were thrown under the bus, we were pushed aside, promises were broken. What are you going to do to be different than that?
Clinton: I don't see it quite the way that you describe. Bill Clinton - appointments that were made, ongoing struggle against Gingrich and the Republican majority. We didn't get as much done as I would have liked, but there was a lot of honest effort going on to keep momentum going. Marched in gay pride parade as first lady. I think I am a leader now. We are doing a lot not only to talk about laws, but to really try to change attitudes, persuade people to be more open, more respectful. If I were sitting where you're sitting, I'd probably feel exactly the same way. You want things to move as quickly as possible, which I understand and wish could happen as well. As President, I have the opportunity to reverse assault on people - that will end, that is over.
Jonathan: Pace called homosexuality immoral. When you were first asked about it, you said you'd leave it to others to decide. Then the next day after criticism you reversed course.
Clinton: It was a mistake. What was really offensive was that Pace was in position of responsibility. I went right at him on Don't Ask Don't Tell. At first opportunity I could, I went after the whole issue. I should have put it in a broader context. Would not put someone on bench who's anti-gay.
I AM your girl.
I want to be a President who moves forward agenda of progress and equality in our country. This country with all of its flaws, has demonstrated extraordinary resilience and a lot of movement forward. We'll see that as the years unfold, and I want to be a part of that. I come to these issues not as a politician or a lawyer but as a friend. I want to say clearly to the American people, these are our parents, our friends. It's very personal for me. We're not going to agree on everything, but I will be a President who will fight for you. I hope that we can be partners in making our country a little bit better, a little bit more progressive for all of us.
So unlike civil rights, where states were well behind the federal government in support for equal rights...
In this case, especially considering the Republicans efforts to codify it in the Constitution...the states, with all the setbacks there, were ahead of the federal government...and state laws are much easier to rescind than trying to repeal a Constitutional amendment...
Kind of a wonky argument but essentially correct...
Well the fact is, for his constituency, they are not courageous at all. It is what they expect him to say. He has nothing to lose. He knows he is not going to be President, so where's the risk?
In my opinion, Obama, Hillary, Edwards et al are the ones to be commended. They are proposing concrete steps, that while difficult, would be achievable...and would represent significant progress...as those in the audience seem to understand...
Kucinich seems unwilling to expend any political capitol to actually work on making progress...
So he will sit on the sidelines, talk about gay marriage, propose a bill with a few cosponsors that can't pass...probably vote against Civil Unions cause it isn't marriage...and accomplish exactly nothing...
LANE: Edwards was the clear winner in this setting. Without a doubt. Hillary walked in thinking she had this support sewn up, and I'm afraid her appearance tonight will severely damage that.KATHARINE: I think she'll win support at least for appearing open to change. She talked a lot about the need for it . No one can argue that she hasn't been around the block
LANE: Obama wasn't exactly a rock star.
KATHARINE: You're right about Edwards. He set himself apart
LANE: Richardson was a total bomb. Gravel and Kucinich were all the way there, but political reality is that they probably won't be winning the nomination. Dodd and Biden have gotten more ink here than they deserve since they didn't even show up.
KATHARINE: Edwards managed to move forward from his CNN-YouTube debate answer on gay marriage that left a lot of people in the lurch.
10:58
LANE: Yes, Edwards showed movement on these issues. And he handled them well. That is why he is the clear winner here.
And while it's all well and good for him to say he won' impose his religious belief on the country. It hard to see how something so core to your being won't affect your judgment.
Gravel is like an archetypal fun uncle or Father Christmas.