http://www.thenewpolitics.com/2005/09/kaine_rising.html

First--why didn't Kilgore answer the question about "Intelligent Design" in the first debate?  What possible relevance does claiming support for SOLs have to do with whether "Intelligent Design" should be taught in schools?  The only difference there was that Russert was a much more savvy moderator--who wasn't going to let anyone weasel out of responding.

Second, it became clear by the end of that first debate that Kilgore had been coached to say "I'll trust the people" as an out whenever he didn't know how to respond to a question (a rather ironic statement from someone who led a major battle against the use referenda in 1995).  I think by the third or fourth "trust the people" sentence, it was pretty clear that Kilgore had no answer to any of the questions.

The sad part is, reading the transcript of the first debate left me with the impression that Kilgore just didn't know how to respond to many of the questions asked. 

I don't know what grade school Kilgore attended in Scott Co, but my familiy out there learned at a very young age that the smart kids answered the questions asked and that they'd lose points for straying off on irrellevancies or meaningless generalizations. I hate to say it, Kilgore comes across in debates as pretty dense. But I suppose that's why he avoids them. 

I can't find any dodges in Kaine's answer in that debate--and from what I heard, he answered every question in yesterday's debates.  Funny part is, Kaine had to answer twice as many questions yesterday--but never went off topic or descended to a platitude crutch like "trust the people."

I am glad you had a good time, Lowell.  I met John Edwards (Sentator from NC, NOT State Senator from Roanoke)at an event last Friday, and thought I would lose my mind! We didn't have cake, though. 

I am really proud the Democratic Party is rallying around Tim Kaine.  I am not surprised though, Tim Kaine is a great candidate, and will be an amazing governor.

Was there any discussion of Moran retiring in 2008 and Brian Moran replacing him?

Did Jim Moran speak? What did he say?

Remember the Washington Post poll was pre-debate!

Now all Virgnians know what we have known about Kilgore for a long time.  He is no leader.  NEVER WAS NEVER WILL BE!  I don't have to be elected Governor to know that!

Tim Kaine is a leader.  Tim Kaine will be our next Governor! 

However, that's a fairly hollow statement from an accounting perspective. Remember Accounting 1? Exact classification of accounts is ultimately meaningless--the only thing that matters is the fundamental accounting equation:

Assets = Liability + Equity.

Beyond splitting hairs over account classification, it's easy to see that Lowell's point is clearly that Kilgore is willing to raise our state's liabilities, rather than pay for assets out of equity. Which leads to another very basic premise from Accounting 1: when you spend and borrow more than you earn, you will become insolvent.

By the way, the real hypocrisy doesn't come from Kaine, it derives Gilmore. With passage of the Virginia Transportation Act of 2000, the General Assembly promised to dedicate the tax on auto insurance premiums to transportation. So, when the economy slumped (because of fiscal insolvency created by Gilmore's deficit mismanagement), this promise was discarded.

Cutting taxes and spending more may have short term appeal to folks who don't understand the consequence this kind of policy will bring to their own personal prosperity.  We saw this with Gilmore--and Kilgore promises to do the same.

We're all Americans here.  You don't call Democrats socialists, and I won't call you a fascist.

Sound fair?

You rock, Lowell!

You all have done a fantastic job making this a fantastic forum.

Keep up the good work!

I agree with Sabato's comments, but I'll differ in one regard:  while I am deeply suspicious of online anonymity, I appreciate that many women choose to write under pseudonyms due to concerns for personal safety. 

However, there is a big difference between responsible anonymous writers, and cowards who hide behind anonymity, which of course I don't support.

Kaine bet on the teachers, the students, the community when he made sure Richmond Schools had the necessary money to hire -- and keep -- excellent administrators and teachers.  Are things perfect in Richmond? No.  But, things are definitely much better than before and the future holds hope. 

Exactly why are you with Kilgore on this issue? 

Tim Kaine believes criminals should be punished and the rights of law-abiding citizens protected.  Sounds like a sensible plan to me!

1) Affirming the 2nd Amendment protects an individuals fundamental right to keep and bear arms, and then; 

2) Coming out in favor of Sunday hunting.

It needs to be posted over here too.
_________
However, regardless of what you, the folks at raisingkaine, Tim Kaine, or any other democrat says, Tim Kaine has ZERO credibility on gun issues until he comes out and agrees the 2nd amendment protects an individual right.

Listen, and I've explained this to you guys before, every time you resort to Brady Bunch sloganeering you dig a deeper and deeper hole for yourselves and continue to cement the fears of most gun owners that your nothing but gun banning bigots.

Stop the allusions to AK-47s and assault weapons and "cop killer bullets" and "Saturday Night Specials" and the notion of "Reasonable Gun Control" cause it will all blow up in your face.

Look, I've come to the conclusion that Kilgore has serious problems.  He needs to be defeated, and I think this is a way to appeal to two huge constituencies in Virginia (gun owners and hunters) and split off the Religious Right.

But, you guys will never have ANY credibility (let alone the credibility to pull this off) as long as you keep deferring to the bigoted gun banning talking points of the Brady Bunch and Commie Mommies. 

Obviously, you and your Kilgore-can-do-no-wrong friends are never going to see this, but I've long ago given up trying to convince you guys on anything.  Besides, you've already written me off as an irrelevant liberal wacko (or a closet Republican, or whatever the ad hominem attack of the day is over at Commonwealth Kilgore Cronies).  Anyway, the bottom line is that you guys are putting in a HUGE amount of effort trying to minimize this issue, and that tells me all I need to know. 

P.S. Now it's up to the "mainstream media" and the Kaine campaign to either run with this story or not.  I've made my case, it's a sound one, and now I'm moving on to other things.  You guys can keep harping on this issue if youw think it's to your candidate's advantage.

Lowell ask:

"How do you explain that the highest murder rates in this country are in the South, where gun laws generally are the loosest, while the lowest murder rates are in the Northeast, where gun laws are the tightest?"

Say what? Low murder rates like those found in New York, Chicago, and DC, all areas with some of the strictest "gun control" in the nation? Tight "gun control" laws found in Northeast states like Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine? I understand your sweeping statement makes for a fine rhetorical flourish, but it’s really not congruent with the facts on numerous levels.

Lowell asks:

"Also, I’m curious: do you believe in ANY gun laws? Should I be able to buy an RPG if I want one? A surface to air missile? Where does one draw the line in the 'right to bear arms?'”

Yes, please roll out that straw man, throw in some reductio ad absurdum, and then ballyhoo about how reasonable you and your candidate are.

I'll tell you what, once your side of the aisle concedes that the constitution provides an individual right for law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms then I'll be willing to debate just what type of arms those should be. Call me many times burnt and so perhaps far too shy, but combined with the fallacies of logic cited above and the semantic mishmash your side of the aisle often embraces—“assault weapon,” “junk guns,” “Saturday night special,” “cop-killer bullet,” et al ad nauseam—I end up concluding you favor caricature creation over informed debate. Don’t see a percentage in joining that waltz.

Bottom line is that your candidate’s embrace of the second amendment is no more convincing than was John Kerry’s and nothing posted here or that I’ve been able to find elsewhere does much to mitigate that fact. Rather, it’s clear that liberal Democrats have learned the hard way that they don’t win elections if they espouse anti-second amendment positions. From that realization various sorts of smoke and mirrors spring, prime examples thereof can be found here. I’d be willing to bet, however, that those who feel the second tenth of the bill of rights is just as sacred as, say, the first tenth won’t be fooled buy these sorts of convolutions.

You don't get any points because they gave Kaine less money.  In fact, if we were handing out points for that sort of thing, it looks like Mark Warner would be the King of Smithfield Immorality.

Try telling the judge you sold less cocaine than the other guy.  The sentence may be lighter, but he'll still throw you in the klink.  And selling less drugs doesn't make you any less culpable for your actions.

Here's the bottom line:  if you make it a huge moral issue for one guy, it's also a huge moral issue if the other guy does it.  That's why you lose credibility.  Instead of admitting you didn't do your homework and moving on, you get entrenched and try to split hairs. 

Kaine took the money.  Warner took the money.  Kilgore took the money.  Can we agree that this set of facts makes the Smithfield issue simply irrelevant?

As far as Tim Kaine, I don't like the fact that he accepted money from Smithfield Foods, but there is certainly no moral equivalency with Jerry Kilgore for several reasons.  First, Kilgore and the Republicans receive far, FAR more money from Smithfield Foods than the Democrats do.  Second, Kilgore's the one going around appealing to "nativism" and bashing illegal immigrants, which is the whole issue here, yet accepting money from a company that hires and exploits illegal immigrants BIG TIME!  Third, obviously this IS a partisan blog, because we really believe in Democratic values and in Tim Kaine.

So, sorry, but we certainly do NOT believe Kilgore and Kaine are on the same level, not at all, on this issue or pretty much on any other issue.  In fact, most if not all of us here at RaisingKaine honestly believe that Kilgore and his right-wing philosophy are deeply wrong and harmful to our state, our nation, and our planet.  That's why we're working hard to defeat them.

If your arguments are true, BOTH these guys (and Warner too) got money from Smithfield, so BOTH are EQUALLY culpable.  This issue cuts both ways. You can't say that Kilgore is more culpable because illegal immigration is a bigger part of his platform.  They both oppose illegal immigration, so it does not matter from a moral standpoint who cares about it more.  If what you say is true, then both of these guys are immoral scumbags.

What the truth is is a different issue entirely.  Keep in mind that HRW, Amnesty International, and the UFCW Union aren't exactly unbiased sources.  Like Kilgore and KAine, these groups all have an agenda.  If no one suffers and no multi-national company is accused of creating mass suffering, these guys go out of business. 

The first thing you learn in politics is that there are three sides to every story.  You have to look through the partisan noise to get to what is really going on.  My frustration with you is that you refuse to put Kilgore and Kaine on the same level on this issue.  It's clear you thought you had cornered Kilgore, and your guy got caught in the crossfire.  Admit it and move on.  It's the only way you'll salvage the reputation of this blog.

PS  Let me guess, more ad hominem attacks coming as you all get frustrated at the deluge of facts?

What you have here is bits of a report "from the workers' mouths."  I won't argue that meatpacking, like construction and many other jobs, is a very difficult industry to be employed in.  What I see in this report a group that takes what each employee says as gospel - without bothering to cut through to see what is fact and what is fiction.  Any employee is going to ham up (oops, sorry) his side of the story, and the employer will ham up his.  Somewhere in the middle usually lies the truth.  This report is rubbish.

I'm a Potts guy.  I'll agree, I've got no love lost for Kilgore.  His policies are awful and I can no longer listen to "always have, always will" without getting dry heaves.  But fair is fair, and you are not being fair here.  You're losing all credibility by continuing with this inane issue and trying to paint me (and anyone else who dares disagree with you) as a Kilgore lackey.  When did I ever say I supported Kilgore?

When talking about "bashing" illegal immigrants (whose very presence here violates federal law), it still doesn't matter whether it's at the top of a candidate's agenda or the bottom.  All that matters is that it's there.  Last week, once the opinion polls suggested Kilgore was onto something for a change, Kaine and Delacey went out of their way to "bash" illegal immigrants and the employers who illegally hire them.  That makes them every bit as culpable as the Kilgore people on this issue.

You can't have it both ways.  If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander.  The Kaine campaign won't run with this non-issue because they know better - it would be pure idiocy to slam your opponent for taking money from one of your own donors.  That violates every tenet of Basic Campaigning 101.  The mainstream media may pile on, but not likely because Smithfield's ox has already been gored on this issue - for years the media piled on this issue.  Even if they did take it on, both guys would get egg on their faces and you know it.

A pox (and a Potts) on both your houses.

Seriously, though, I simply don't buy your logic here.  I've laid out my case as to why Kilgore's illegal immigrant bashing doesn't square with his acceptance of campaign contributions from a major employer of illegal immigrants.  I've also called on the Kaine campaign to return any contributions it's received from Smithfield Foods.  That way, the Kaine campaign can be both MORALLY correct as well as POLITICALLY (as in not violating Basic Campaigning 101, as you point out).  Either way, though, this is NOT an "inane" issue, this is a core issue of how our political system runs (or fails to run), how our politicians are beholden to special interests, how political contributions by companies like Smithfield Foods can corrupt the system and at the minimum cast doubt on the integrity of decisions by our representatives.  For more on this, see John McCain -- one of my favorite politicians -- who has spoken voluminously on the issue.

P.S.  For the record, as a former Lowell Weicker Republican, I like Russ Potts and would support him if it came down to Kilgore vs. Potts.  Luckily, we Democrats have the best candidate in the race, so that's not an issue.  I say, a pox on only one house -- Kilgore's!
P.P.S.  Sorry if I just assumed you were with the Kilgore Kamp.  Things have gotten a bit heated around here the past few days...maybe time to cool down a bit? :)

And you're too nice to keep protecting Ben.  If he wants to lob garbage for months on end, he shouldn't get to hide behind an anonymity he doesn't afford his commenters or the targets of his ill-concealed vendettas.

Shayna: You guys are doing great work, keep it up!!

"So why is..."

Don't leave us hangin'!  :-)

[name redacted given that the individual wishes to remain anonymous],

Volunteer hours absolutely fall in the category of "deliver[ing] candidates the resources they need." It's the resource we have available right now.

We're incredibly proud and grateful to the volunteers who've poured their hearts and souls into helping us elect candidates across Northern Virginia.

Thousands of calls for Poisson, Marsden, and Werkheiser have been made from our living room, thousands more will be made for others, including Bruce Roemmelt starting next Wednesday, and we hope those will help make the margin of victory in those tight races.

Best,
Shayna

1.  Kilgore's own biography says he was in charge of the State Police as Secretary of Public Safety under George Allen

2.  The reference concerns the specific period when Kilgore served as Secretary of Public Safety.

3.  Kilgore's bio also says that "As Attorney General...He also put forth a major anti-gang initiative to deal with the real gang problem that we have in Virginia."

4.  Police records show that gang crimes also grew under his AG service.

I suppose that you both know a heck of alot more about the organization of government than Kilgore does.  That's hardly comforting, since the gang threat of groups like MS13 has mushroomed throughout the years Kilgore CLAIMS  responsibility. Oh, but dummy him! Maybe you should have been Secretary of Public Safety and AG?

By the way, beyond learning how to read, it looks like Hanover also need to understand what an "Ad Hominem" argument actually is:  "a logical fallacy that involves replying to an argument or assertion by addressing the person presenting the argument or assertion rather than the argument itself.(Wikipedia)"  Your protests only exibit more "Ad Hominem" behavior, rather proving Lowell's point.

But of course, you two are the real experts.  Kilgore, Wikipedia--they just don't know what they are talking about!

Hmm.  Why don't you run for governor? 

I am all for a debating the issues, but it is a waste of time to counter blatant fabrications.  I still think you are a nice guy, Lowell!

The fact is Tim Kaine did the heavy lifting in the Senate to make Warner-Kaine a reality, and Jerry W. Kilgore opposed it.

What part of Jerry W. Kilgore's plan to keep cops off the streets do you assert gives him street cred as a crime fighter.

This is 2+2 stuff, Dorsett, and you're coming up with 3.

On the one side is you and Jerry W. Kilgore, on the other side is Tim Kaine and actual, real-life, law-enforcement officials.  You may have heard of them, they're called COPS. (or in this case VCOPS):

Standing with dozens of police officers, sheriffs, deputy sheriffs and prosecutors in front of the Richmond Police Memorial, Lt. Governor and Democratic Nominee for Governor Tim Kaine today received the endorsement of the Virginia Coalition of Police and Deputy Sheriffs. VCOPS President Dave Childress said, ““While many candidates say they support law enforcement by being tough on crime, Governor Warner and Tim Kaine have shown that they are also committed to providing support to our men and women in public safety. We are both proud and honored to endorse Tim Kaine as our next Governor of the Commonwealth of Virginia.”

Wow.  I thought I was methodically pointing out that police duties fall under the Governor and local authorities, not the Attorney General.  It also certainly seems odd for the self-proclaimed right-hand-man of Warner (Kaine) to have others attacking Kilgore for crime fighting failures that occurred on Kaine's watch (he is part of the Warner Cabinet, right?  Isn't that what he says?)

But, if I was rude about pointing out the obvious, then I apologize.

As far as ad hominem attacks go, I did not attack Tim Kaine as a person.  I went after his record, which I thought was the purpose of this campaign -- to compare records.

If anyone is guilty of ad hominem attacks, it is you, since you say that our comments are "not worthy of a response," right before you accuse us of being rude and possessing "right wing stupidity."

You ignore the fact that Governor Allen ordered new reporting standards by which gangs were tracked, which caused the stark jump in gang statistics.  Naturally, when you first start to chart a certain criminal activity, the rise will be dramatic at first.  But, you give no credit to people who first identified the problem.

Also, by your logic, if it was Kilgore's fault that gangs began to rise in the 1990s, then it must be now-Secretary of Public Safety John Marshall's fault that drug arrests are low.

Correct?

Again, if Tim Kaine has a record of battling gangs, either as mayor or as Lt. Gov., I would think you would be able to provide it pronto.

But, as he doesn't, you may simply choose to ban us.

That is your prerogative, I suppose, but it doesn't really do anything to support your candidate.  And it certainly undermines your claim to be open to different sides of the argument.

I really wonder, do you disregard the actual structure of state government on purpose, or are you completely ignorant of it?

Just how many drug enforcement officers do you believe there are in the Office of Attorney General?

If you answered "none," you would be correct.

The actual law enforcement duties lie with the State Police and local police.

Last time I checked, Governor Warner was in charge of the State Police, and the various localities in Virginia were in charge of their own police.

But, since you love to talk about Warner-Kaine, then let's talk about that.

Since, in your view, drug-enforcement has been lax in the last four years, what exactly has been Tim Kaine's failing in that?

Clearly, since he is so influential in the Warner administration, Tim Kaine must have some explanation as to his own absence on this issue.

Jerry Kilgore has an entire list of laws he has passed that toughen penalties against drug manufacturers, abusers and vendors.

Your guy has what ... a few press releases he sends out two months before election day?

As a challenge to you, Lowell, I would like to see what Tim Kaine has proposed in the state legislature that would fight drug crimes -- or any other crimes, for that matter.

And spare me the "budget reform" idiocy.

Lame as lame can be.

Why don't you attack Smithfield some more?

You seemed to be on a lot more firm ground then.

"Gee, who could that be?"...Um, perhaps the Secretary of Public Safety (like Lowell says)?  Well, even Mr. Kilgore seems to support Lowell on this point: 

"Prior to his election as Attorney General, Kilgore served as Secretary of Public Safety for then Governor George Allen ­ managing 11 State agencies, including the Virginia State Police..." (Kilgore Biography)

Is Lowell really "way off the mark," do you know actually know anything "about state government"--or are you "just not being rude?"

I'm assuming that these anonymous posters are 1. male and 2. separate individuals i.e., not the same person posting over and over.  Assuming the above, I'd assert that the contribution they make to this discussion is limited, while the amount they detract is substantial.

Moreover, I personally object to the derisive, virulent, and cowardly attacks these guys and ziik have made against YOU PERSONALLY.

I've been doing battle with these guys for a while: in 3 out of 5 contests, I'm personally attacked.  I know you get attacked personally all the time.  It's just plain ugly.

Where I'll say something like "you make 2+2 equal 3", Dorsett will say, "you're stupid and everyone who listens to you gets stupider."

I'll fight anyone anywhere, and I'm not crying foul.  I'm just questioning whether this is healthy for Raising Kaine as a community.

A good flame war among friends is one thing, but if people have no contribution besides intimidation, hate, and cowardace to add, they should be exiled. 

If it were my name being smeared by these guys, I would have banned them long ago.
It's your decision, Lowell. 

If it were me, I'd ban 'em. 

The writer wants to pull little snippets from the Bible, so here is my contribution: I wonder if Jesus' brothers were jealous of him because he could walk on water? Oh my! Can Rex walk on water, too?... That's it!! Surely that must be the real reason his brothers are jealous of him! Now why haven’t any of you brought this up? I mean, walking on water, wow! You should be so proud. 

It's so sad, how some of you can twist your comments in hopes of turning negative attention to Rex's family. I'm sure it out of the fact none of you like the FACT that most of the McCarty 'Krew' will not vote for their own flesh and blood. Oh my, how the facts must hurt..... Please continue in your clearly unbiased fashion to write childish comments about any McCarty who stands up for his or her beliefs.

Waaahhh, we're not getting our points across well.... None of your 'arrows' are hitting the attended targets. Snide little comments which attack the Kilgore's and Rex's own family are all this blog has since any of you lack any real facts to bring to the discussion... I know, I know.... Willie Mae......you people make me so proud I am not you. Statements made be you which are not based in fact are just sooooo easy for anyone not aligned with Rex's 'Krew' to quickly come to the realization Jerry Kilgore will remain the delegate from VA District 1.

Anyone making your calls yet as you've been asked? All type, and hype, and no do.....

This campaign has devolved into Yo Mama!?

Is Terry Kilgore running for Delegate or 3st Grade Playground Monitor?

This is so sad.

The statement gave a line from the will as written: "If any beneficiary questions or contests the dispositions or decisions made by the executor (which was Rex, the eighth child, by the way) they shall forfeit all rights as a beneficiary of this will."

Okay, so how does his brothers now have ownership of the McCarty family farm? I mean the will clearly states if they object to anything that Rex did with any part of his father's estate, they would no longer be a beneficiary. Did a judge overturn the will? What? You couldn't bother to clarify this point with Rex when you were rushing to post his statement on this site, huh? Thanks for giving the readers all the information you could….

Like i said, its a pretty lame reason - and certainly not worthy of your top 10.  There has to be SOMETHING worse you could think of about Jerry Kilgore.

You know that Russ is a viable candidate, with strong ideas about the future of the commonwealth.  We're doing extended lists of why to vote for Tim Kaine and why Jerry W. Kilgore is unsuited for the position.  Russ should get some airtime.  It doesn't seem likely he will get elected, but he is brining a lot of energy and interest to the race.

Who knows, stranger things have happened.  Look who got elected Governor in Ka-Lee-Forr-Nee-Uh.

But, obviously the Kilgore campaign thinks (and knows) that Potts will take votes from him.  This is why Kilgore refuses to appear in a debate with Potts.

The Republican spinners should at least make their message logically connect with the campaign's actions.

If they really thought Potts was going to take votes from Kaine, Kilgore would be wanting to appear jointly with Potts all around the state. 

We all know what Potts is (a Republican) whether the Virginia GOP wants to admit it or not. 

It took the wisdom and hard work of the Warner-Kaine administration to set right the fiscal house of cards left by GOP Governors and the likes of Jerry W. Kilgore who promise the moon, but won't say how they'll pay.

The Democratic party is the party of fiscal responsibility.  Bill Clinton managed the economy and the national budget.  Mark Warner and Tim Kaine managed the economy and the state budget.

Tim Kaine represents responsible fiscal leadership.

Jerry W. Kilgore represents irresponsible promises with neither heart nor backbone to back them up.