I like my politicos clean... Murtha is about as clean as Tom Delay...

Thank you for saying this - I have to agree with you, and I'm glad I'm not the only one out there with concerns.

I fear that as much as Murtha adds re: the war and the need for a new strategy, he takes away - because there are serious ethical questions that could hurt Democrats' efforts to position themselves as cleaning up Washington, because he advocates for some positions that aren't exactly Dem-oriented (pro-life, anti-gun control), etc.

I think we need strong leaders who will fight on the Iraq issue.  But I think Murtha brings a lot of questions that we have got to be worried about if we truly want a new direction for the party and the Congress.  I'm not sure Hoyer is the right man, but the sudden Murtha cheering leaves me concerned.

I think the only thing Jim Moran and I agree upon is Jim Webb.  Besides that, we have very diffrent ideas of "morality."  I'm 100% for Hoyer, and I would ask that all of you show yor support for Hoyer.  We need to prove to the American people that we don't reward escaping corruption charges in the party with leadership positions.  I will always respect Murtha for standing up against the war and adding credibility to our argument.  But that doesn't alone deserve leadership positions.  Hoyer is the right man for the job (at least out of the two.) 

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. I have respect for Murtha standing up to the GOP on the war but his pork spending, ABSCAM entanglement and disagreement with Dem platforms doesn't make him the best pick.

But I disagree with all that has been said so far. Jack just says it like it is and does not have a gift of words, which makes him easy prey.

Go Jack.

While I agree with the support of the clearly more ethical and suited candidate, Hoyer, I question the suport in light of Hoyers record of support of the war. I though that the idea was if they support the war get them out asap. i.e. Joe Lieberman.

The republicans voted for lieberman instead of their own candidate.  Now we are stuck with him.

25% of Dems stayed loyal to Joementum.  I would've had I lived in Conneticut.  Joe won 25% of Dems, 35% of the GOP, and a MASSIVE number of Indies.  Joe won because he was a better man for the job.  Think Big Tent, people.

How many of those 25% Connecticut Dems have dual citizenships and dual loyalties just like him.  How many think the iraq war is good for Israel?  Say it ain't so joe, say it ain't so.

I hardly believe that massive Indies wanted to return the senate to him.  Dream on, we are stuck with your boy. 

And thank God, too.  He gets himself a nice Chairmanship. 

And for your information, I am very supportive of Israel and her sovereignty.  Any Islamic nation that attacks Israel should, and will, face the military force of the Western nations.

What a surprise and you don't respect any other sovereignty.  From close examination it has been Israel attacking other nations with trumped up "defense." 

Remember the Liberty, Thank God the Russians showed up.

You actually think that the Israelis provoke the attacks? You have clearly not followed the conflict to any extent on your own, and have allowed the biased information you are given to influence your opinions. Go back and do the research and you will see that Israel only acts in defense of its citizens against terrorists who dierectly threaten the safety of the citizens.

I really don't have a horse in this race, and I've read all the stuff about Murtha's ethics, but Hoyer is not clean either, at least from what I read in this article:

http://www.huffingto...

Also, Hoyer has been fighting with Pelosi for a while -- and we need unity in the leadership.

I don't like Murtha either. 

If I had to choose, I'd look for someone else entirely.  Like Pete Visclosky of Indiana, who has the experience (he's been up there since 1985).  He's anti-war and very liberal.  I happen to know he is honest to a fault.  He has a great voting record.  http://www.vote-smar...  However, he's a wonk, not a pol, and so he'll likely never have a leadership position.  Too bad.

Notice how Pelosi has been talking about "leading from the center?"  Right now, they want to keep the majority, and that means including liberals AND moderates.

I probably know more about Jack Murtha and his "parochial" wheelings and dealings as anybody since I've seen things on the Defense contracting side which would make people here cringe.

But you know what. Before many democrats thought it was fashionable (or had the guts to commit) Jack Murtha stood up and raised the BULLSHIT flag on the Iraq Debacle and he took considerable amount of heat (character assasination) for it. He provided cover for a lot of Dems in speaking out forcibly against the inept Rummy War. So for me I say ... pay the man his due!!

The fact that he was one of the very first to offer support to Jim Webb goes way far in my book of support for like minded Democrats.

Send in the Marines !!.... and get Jack Murtha the Majority leadership postion and keep the focus on IRAQ.

As Webb is so fond of saying, Iraq isn't the only problem facing this country.  Is there any reason besides Iraq that Murtha should be Majority Leader?

You said, "Iraq isn't everything."  That's true.  But anyone still pretending that waging a war based on lies isn't the worst  thing a president can do, needs his or her moral compass recalibrated. Unfortunately neither man had the spine that Webb did before the war.  Where were are of our so-called leaders when Bush took us down this road?  But let's fast forward.

Today, Hoyer is out of touch with America in the 21st Century.  Ironically, the older man can change and grow, as required, and when WE NEEDED A change of course.  At a real low-point Murtha actually was a leader.  Murtha's courage make last Tuesday's result more likely.  Where was Hoyer.  Oh, yes, he was too busy being a throw-back.

If Hoyer is the best we can do, we are in real trouble.  And Josh is right, Murtha is being swiftboated. 

BTW so Is Barack Obama (being "swift-boated"), as I write this.  More on this later, but let me quickly ad, he has done absolutely nothing wrong.  Who's fingerprints are on this one?  Hmmmm.... A new poll just revealed he's only 12% behind Hillary.  Edwards is in third but fat back.  Which of the two?  I'll let others speculate while I keep my own counsel.  I am so angry about this I might sign up to volunteer for Obama. (Message from self: You promised me you would stay out of another likely brutal primary primary.)  And there's a state to turn blue.

To be swiftboated, the media must be "unfairly" attacking and "spreading lies" about Murtha.  These are fair questions to bring up. Democrats deserve lean leadership.  I don't want a Majority Leader who is frequently under scrutiny from the media.

Without the old scandals, I'd still support Hoyer.  What, besides the War, does Murtha have?

I respect your right to differ, DanG.  But Murtha was never charged with anything.  Murtha may be no saint.  And I'd rather not even a suspician of taint or cloud.  But my point was the swiftboaters will make crimes of non-crimes, clouds of sunshine.  They twist and contort to make things different than they are. 

In the whole scheme of things, however, those who abetted this war and the ongoing power grab of GWB have far more on their consciences than John Murtha.  And while so many in Congress abetted the impeachment of Bill Clinton, they allowed this current president to run amok over the Constitution, changing our country for what seems like forever.  It will take a Century to undo it all.

Would that there were a better leader.  But those are the two we had to chose between (or rather the House did).

Meanwhile, we've got Trent Lott in our faces for the duration. As much of a throwback Hoyer (and non leader except for all his chits)is, that pales in comparison to the news that we now have Trent Lott in our faces for the duration. 

I stand behind Jack Murtha as well. This IS an attack on him. None of us knew about ABSCAM until this week because of the MSM and the right wingers. And thanks to them those who have less intelligence with follow with the masses.

Don't let the GOP insult you like that.

This crap that Murtha did or did not do was YEARS ago. We stood behind Jim Webb when he was attacked for things that were done or said YEARS ago. It was an attack on Webb, it's an attack on Murtha.

They don't want Murtha to be in a leadership position not because he's a "liberal" that Mr. Murtha is not. But because they FEAR him and his opposition to policies he's supported for years. The GOP fears murtha, they got this story out there, they got LIBERAL bloggers to fall behind..

I stand in shock, tell me your not that stupid.

We attacked Allen on those, even those were also decades old accusations.  I'm just saying, we have to draw a line somewhere.  We either hold people responsible for their past actions or we don't.

We draw the line, when we question the motives.

Ask yourself why? Why now? Why wasn't this an issue during his close campaign that just ended?

Why now? and what are the right wing interests in this, since it was them who just recently resurfaced the subject.

Please tell me your not that stupid.

DrMontoya,

ABSCAM is very relevant!  Hope you caught the Roll Call story where Murtha calls the new lobbying reform bill, "a whole lot of crap". Being on the Hill and involved with appropriations I can tell you that Murtha has a reputation on Capital Hill for being the 'person to see' as far as earmarks are concerned.  I'll tell you that I'm not a single issue dem so Murtha being against the war doesn't do it for me and I'll have to say I hope Dems aren't going to make it their single issue too.

It's not the conservatives who are attacking Murtha it's the non partisan watch dog groups who oppose corrupt or seemingly corrupt people in Congress. In September, CREW compiled a list of lawmakers, that it designated as the "20 Most Corrupt Members of Congress," at its Beyond DeLay website. Murtha was given a "dishonorable mention" by the group for being "involved in a number of pay-to play schemes involving former staffers and his brother, Robert 'Kit' Murtha." 

Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW) is a non-profit legal watchdog group dedicated to holding public officials accountable for their actions. Go to www.beyonddelay.org for more info.

Murtha can scream 'Swift Boat' all he wants and you can say that it's a Republican scheme but you can't argue with groups like CREW and his reputation on the Hill which all scream corrupt!  When it comes down to it, it just doesn't smell right.

Murtha does.  I don't care who released the video - Republicans or Satan - the cat is out of the bag now.

The question you should be asking is not why it was released just now (the answer to that is obvious - politics) but why it wasn't released some 26 years ago in full form?

Don't you think voters may have had other thoughts regarding the re-election of Murtha many years ago if they had this video?  As I understand it people with power kept the video under wraps - obviously it would come to light some day.  Well, his past just caught up with him in a big way.

Webb wrote controversial things - but they were his honest oppinions at the time.  There weren't any ethical questions as to what he wrote, just a difference of oppinion.  The Webb situation just doesn't compare.

since he is a classic example of a Dem who is more in bed with corporate interests than many Republicans.

I have been aware of Hoyer since his days in the Maryland general Assembly.  I'm sorry, I am not and never have been a fan.

That said, I am not excited about Murtha either, but for different reasons, since I lived in Penna from 1971-1982. 

Still, I do not think Hoyer would be an effective leader, and I worry that he would be subtly undercutting Pelosi.

If you pushed me, I would come down on the side of Murtha, ifno other reason than given his age he would not be in that position all that long.  I think we owe him big time for sticking his neck out on Iraq.  I am not aware of Hoyer ever taking any risks on anything.

We don't always have to be "fighting the powers that be."  We are in control now people.  We're not the underdog anymore.  We're the big dog.  It's this "fight the power" that is causing this infighting amongst Democrats.  We ARE the power.  We shouldn't fight ourselves.

Hoyer presented a convincing argument in favor of Terry Schiavo and her rights.  I was impressed. He tried to put an end to the republican midnight circus.

are unfair.  He's on board with Pelosi and in the twilight of his career.  Murtha's been a LEADER on the dominant issue of this presidency when few others were willing and able to step up.  Things got so bad with the Congress that we were able to sell Jim Webb's exceptionally prescient stand on the war and make it a campaign issue.

Leaders do not come easily.  When you find one you put them out there.  Murtha is kind of an icon, given his historic connection with the military.  I think it would be a mistake for us not to take advantage of the way the Misleader drove the country away from the Republican Party. That Murtha, a conservative, has been so forthcoming on working with progressives is something we should keep going.

I am not impressed with what the good government purists say about Murtha.  What about Hoyer? He is Mr. Insider. Anyway,  25 years ago is not what matters.  What matters is how the Democrats perform from now on.  I think they will adopt a strict code of ethics. The guy stood up when it was not easy, but he did what he thought was right.  I think Murtha deserves a chance to lead the majority.

Yeah Murtha stood up to Iraq on one thing.  What else does he have on his side? Iraq will eventually end, and we want a lasting majority.

Look, Hoyer is the more liberal of the two.  I normally wouldn't support him.  But we need to show America that we reward following the rules in this party.  After years of corruption, let's get a guy up who doesn't have a shady history?

Have we screwed this up already?  If Murtha wins, it looks like we think ethics reform is 'crap'.  Murtha's knee deep in handing out pork, according to both sides, and there's that problem with the FBI tape, and abscam, even if it's really old.  We can't have a guy like this and claim that we're cleaning things up in Congress.  Murtha's the right guy, for the war, but he's got so much other baggage.  If he wins, we look like we're also the unethical.  If Hoyer wins then it looks like Pelosi has no power in the party.  She's a Speaker who can't even get her guy elected.  I hate to say it, but Pelosi shouldn't have backed Murtha.  Make him chair of armed forces committee, or something that has more control over the War.  We don't need someone who calls the ethics bill 'total crap'.  It looks bad. 

Moran looked sad, like he didn't think Murtha would win. 

I can't believe we've created a lose-lose situation this quickly.  It sucks.  Idiot republicans will be laughing at us for weeks, no matter who wins tomorrow.  Color me bummed. 

I agree with this statement too.  I'm really frustrated that Dems, within a week of coming into power and not yet actually controlling anything, have been reduced to partisan squabbling over selecting a majority leader, and are now lining up to back or rip apart a man who has serious ethical questions in his history.  I think it's a real mistake on the part of soon-to-be-Speaker Pelosi to pick her dog in this fight based on past loyalties, ignoring that one of the central issues of this campaign was corruption and that there are questions about Murtha.  I just would've rather we avoided this whole mess by being smarter about it.  It sounds silly, and maybe condescending, but one thing the Democrats REALLY need to focus on is just that - being SMART.  Because we aren't always good at it, to say the least.

Loyalty matters but ethics matter too.  We out here in voter-land are hoping to see a revitalized Democratic Party where our Representatives and Senators care more about getting the problems that afflict our nation fixed, rather than putting getting re-elected as top priority. Jim Webb was such a refreshing change...a man who wouldn't alter an opinion just to get a vote.  You knew when you cast your vote for him, what you saw was what you were going to get.  I am sorry that it's just "politics as usual" in the first test our majority pary has faced and I agree with SueBonnetSue.  Color me bummed too.

all of Virginia's Congressional Democrats to encourage their support of Jack Murtha for Majority Leader -- says Josh

Not on your nelly, sweetie; I might be motivated enough to contact all the Dem reps (and Ms Pelosi, whose "rating" went from Goddess to Dimwit on Sunday, as far as I'm concerned) and tell them "pox on both your houses".

The choice between Murtha and Hoyer is like a choice between electric chair and rope --  *death* is the object of the game. We (Dems) *cannot, possibly* afford corrupt leadership now, unless we're prepared to kiss our '08 and '12 hopes goodbye. Seniority, triangulation, business as usual in DC... All of that is totally "last year's snow", if the Dem House is to keep its promise to those who voted them in. We need someone  entirely new and untainted (as yet )

That description sure doesn't fit the DLC "It's our party and we get to run it" critics of Jack Murtha, who have to go back 26 years to drag up the Abscam case when--hello, there--Murtha was given a clean bill of health. Yes, he's a tough old pol who cuts deals for his district and, yes, he has cast some votes I wish that he hadn't. But what do we want? A Speaker of the House who has to keep looking for the knives in her back from an old rival or a Speaker of the House with a Majority Leader who is a solid ally. To me that's a no-brainer.

And there's one thing I really, truly, do like about Jack Murtha. He's a man who took a position that I disagreed with, supporting the war, and was still willing to say, I made a mistake, we need to be doing something different here. That's a kind of tough-minded, reality-based willingness to change his mind, to learn from experience that we desperately need in Washington--a lot more than we need Holier-than-thou litmus tests.

What?  The DLC members aren't bringing up these charges!  Why is it when liberals need somebody to blame, they turn to the DLC?  They've given you the only Dem President since Reagan.  Be greatful.

Again, I'll wait for the answer from somebody: What does Murtha have besides the War?

Oh, and let me REALLY piss you all off.  I think Nancy made an incredibly stupid move by choosing sides in this fight, and she went from looking pretty good (after her "rule from the center" and "bipartisan leadership" shpeel), but I'm losing all confidence in her.  Sad, that only took one week.

...until you rolled out this lemong:

"but this moment in history requires a man of character like Jack Murtha."

Murtha is as bad on earmarking and on ethics as the many GOP legislator's who have been based on this board.

Choose Murtha because he is tough, because he is loyal, because he led the charge to leave Iraq...all these are perfectly reasonable.

But don't tell us about his character, because his longstanding ethics-in-practice tell a completely different story.

I am split on the two, but believe Jack Murtha put his neck on the block and got the ball rolling the other way. Give em some time there and see what happens. In the end it probably doesn't matter between the two anyway. They both probably have skeletons. Let's just make some progress and move this country in the direction that the Americans voted for.

When Murtha was attacked and called a coward for openly opposing the war I was as outraged as anyone.  And I'll agree the Swiftboaters tried their usual smearing games by questioning his Purple Hearts. 

But it is not Swiftboating to point out Murtha's bad behavior during Abscam.  Anyone who has seen the tapes knows he came within a cat's whisker of indictment.  He appeared to be saying "don't pay me yet, let's wait and see how things work out."  Moreover, he's been shadowed for years by charges of earmarking, steering business to family and friends, and otherwise engaging in some questionable conduct.  Added to this is his comment that the new ethics rules are "total crap" but he'll support them because Nancy Pelosi does.  Hardly a ringing endorsement. 

Hoyer isn't Mr. Clean, either, but I'm really torn about who to support here.  I admire Murtha's guts and feel it's important that Pelosi have someone she trusts at the position, but believe she went in hard on this when it could have been handled another way.  I might lean toward Murtha just because it doesn't do to have bad feelings between a Speaker and a Majority leader, but I'm not happy that she started a game of brinksmanship the week after the election.

It's not "swiftboating" until the accusations are blatant lies.  Nobody has yet lied about Murtha.

Done all I can to make sure those votes go to Hoyer.  I know Boucher is for Hoyer, and Moran is for Murtha.  Wonder where Scott is.  I get the feeling he's backing Hoyer.  We'll know soon enough.

While I respect Murtha for coming out against the war as strong as he did, and fighting back against the on-slaught from the war apologist, that doesn't make him the best choice for a leadership position.

Wasn't one of the issues the Democrats (D)used to regain control of both the House & Senate the corruption of the Republicans (R)?  So the D are going to give a leadership position to someone who was involveed in the ABSCAM scandal?  Boy the R will have a field day talking about D hypocrisy!  And you can be sure that for the next 2 years, that will be all you hear on talk radio. 

The D's are their own worst enemy! 

I hate that damn phrase.  It's the economy, not the war.  We have to fix Iraq, no doubt.  But we also have to create a lasting majority dedicated to Economic Fairness and Government Responsibility.  Tell me, what has Murtha done for these topics?

The War is important, and it should be addressed immediately.  But if we intend to create a majority that actually means something, we're going to have to put up experienced leaders who have clean records.  Murtha isn't clean, and whether the scrutiny is warrented or not, the fact is that it's there.

I would also like to say that Josh's opinions are NOT the opinions of everybody here at RK.  I'm very much behind Hoyer, as are many other RK organizers.