Centrist and African American Views of Affirmative Action

By: Lowell
Published On: 4/4/2006 1:00:00 AM

The online encyclopedia Wikipedia has an excellent discussion of Affirmative Action, including the views of both supporters and opponents.  The following paragraph, on the "Centrist View" of Affirmative Action, jumped out at me since it seemed to make a good amount of sense:

Certain people have a different point of view about specifically first world affirmative action which, for lack of a better word, will be referred to as "centrist" here. They claim that affirmative action makes sense, but only to the point where it helps the disadvantaged members of minorities, as opposed to the middle and upper class. They believe that affirmative action, as it is now, is not fulfilling its original purpose (to bring minorities out of poverty) as the vast majority of minorities, in the first world at least, are already middle-class. There have been cases of middle-class minorities receiving better jobs or college acceptance rates than whites of equal or lower income or social standing. According to this point of view, affirmative action should be eliminated and joined with the normal welfare system that helps both whites and blacks that are lower-class. They believe that affirmative action should only be used to bring the lower class, not a specific racial group, out of poverty.

Sounds fairly reasonable to me (although I'm of the Bill Clinton/Al Gore "mend it not end it" school myself) - an affirmative action system based far more on economic class than on race.  And, by the way, since economic class and race are strongly correlated, a change like this to the program would not really hurt African Americans, but it WOULD stop discriminating against poor white kids from Appalachia or wherever.  It also would move us towards a more "color blind" society, which I believe should be everyone's ultimate goal as we move into the 21st century.  Finally, I would say that this "centrist" view comes close to "mend it don't end it," and also pretty much captures where Jim Webb is coming from on this issue.

Speaking of economics, Dr. Thomas Sowell - an African American economist with a PhD from the University of Chicago - wrote a book in 2004 called "Affirmative Action Around the World: An Empirical Study."  The book argues, albet from a strong conservative perspective, that Affirmative Action programs have not reduced black poverty rates ("the black poverty rate was cut in half before affirmative action ? and has barely changed since then), have not improved relations between races, and have not helped poor people of other races (white, Asian).  Sowell also finds that Affirmative Action programs have led to skewed results at colleges and universities.  Here's what Sowell has to say on that subject:

Minority students are systematically mismatched with institutions due to racial preferences, where they underperform relative to the student body. Had they gone to an institution without the help of affirmative action, to a less selective school, they would have received better grades and graduated at higher rates.

When the top-level schools recruit black students who would normally be qualified to succeed at the level next to the top, then the second tier of institutions faces the prospect of either being conspicuously lacking in minority students or dipping down to the next level below to bring in enough minority students for a statistically respectable "representation." Usually they end up mismatching students. Once begun at the top, this process continues on down the line.

Now, I'm not saying I agree or disagree with this - I'm certainly no expert on this subject!  - simply that I find it intriguing.  What does other research on Affirmative Action indicate?  Has it worked 100%, 50%, 0% or what?  Perhaps it's time, 41 years after the start of Affirmative Action in America, to do a fundamental rethinking of how we're doing - succeeding, failing, mixed results? - with this program?  Perhaps that's exactly what Jim Webb - albeit using language I would not have used in his 2000 book review - is trying to do here?  Is Harris Miller arguing that we should never "mend" Affirmative Action, just leave it exactly the way it is for the foreseeable future?  If so, my guess is that Miller is in the small minority on this issue, and that Webb's in the large majority.

[UPDATE:  Just to emphasize, I am NOT saying I agree with the conclusions reached by Dr. Sowell, I'm just saying I would like to an open, honest discussion of this issue.  What other studies do people recommend?  I'd like to learn more about Affirmative Action, how it's worked, what has changed, etc.]


Comments



summercat: Thanks, (Lowell - 4/4/2006 11:34:39 PM)
summercat:  Thanks, and I agree with you - Webb himself obviously needs to talk about his powerful vision of racial reconciliation in this country.  Webb himself needs to talk about how we bring working-class whites  and working-class African Americans together.  Personally, I want to hear Webb flesh out his views as to how this could come about, and how it could change America for the (far) better.  I'm hopeful and confident that we'll be hearing more from Jim Webb on this issue, and I am looking forward to it tremendously.


Agreed summercat. I (Susan Mariner - 4/4/2006 11:34:39 PM)
Agreed summercat.  I don't know whether the African legislators who endorsed Mr. Miller and bashed Webb would have done so if they had had an opportunity to meet with Webb first and to understand where Webb himself really is on this issue rather than having Mr. Miller's camp tell them where Webb is, which is what I highly suspecct happened here.  Mr. Webb hasn't gotten his message out on this yet, and this is primarily the unfortunate result of having entered the race late and of having to scramble to do so many things at once.  There are definitely consequences to being the last one at the table.  And as of today, Mr. Webb's team will have to work even harder to overcome the impact of his late arrival.


Sean, I don't believ (Susan Mariner - 4/4/2006 11:34:39 PM)
Sean, I don't believe that was what I said in the least bit.  I believe that I said that Webb didn't make his case, that it was likely made for him by his opponent.  That's a significantly different comment than the one you say I made.  Fortunately, I was here to defend myself when you accused me of being being insulting.


Thoughtful piece, Lo (summercat - 4/4/2006 11:34:39 PM)
Thoughtful piece, Lowell.  I agree with the "mend it, don't end it" stance.  However, as had been mentioned early in the campaign, this is an issue that Jim Webb needs to tackle--ideally, he should have addressed it long before now, imo.


I believe Clarence T (Adam Sharp - 4/4/2006 11:34:40 PM)
I believe Clarence Thomas is also a strong supporter of class-based affirmative action rather than race-based.


Sean: I agree, it's (Lowell - 4/4/2006 11:34:40 PM)
Sean: I agree, it's not an issue of PHYSICALLY "meeting" Webb, but it IS an issue of people getting to know Webb better.  The great strength of Webb, and also his problem in this modern age of sound bite politics, is that his views are complex, nuanced, not "black or white," and not necessarily "politically correct" or conforming to liberal Democratic orthodoxy.  In addition, Webb has written voluminously, so he has a long "paper trail," which could only be a liability in our current, messed-up political climate.  I urge everyone to study Webb more deeply, and I am confident that you will have a tremendous appreciation for this man's intellect and "remarkable heart," as Bob Kerrey says.

On the "four Virginias," I look forward to your  post.

Thanks.



If you can't meet Ji (Loudoun County Dem - 4/4/2006 11:34:40 PM)
If you can't meet Jim Webb then read his words, He discusses this issue in detail with his reasoning explained and supporting data in "Born Fighting" (I don't have my copy with me but I believe it is at the end of the next to last chapter).

I will not try to encapsulate his writing (I could in no way do it justice) but I will say that I was also a bit alarmed when I heard "Jim Webb is against Affirmative Action" with no other context. I have since read both "Born Fighting" which allayed my fears since I saw that he was interested in improving social equality rather than hindering racial equality.

I have also since read "The Nightingale's Song" and learned that Jim Webb is the reason that the statue at the Vietnam War memorial has an African American soldier (The only statue on the mall with an African American).



"And, by the way, si (D Flinchum - 4/4/2006 11:34:40 PM)
"And, by the way, since economic class and race are strongly correlated, a change like this to the program would not really hurt African Americans, but it WOULD stop discriminating against poor white kids from Appalachia or wherever."

Several years ago, there was an article in "Newsweek" about a young working class student named Daniel Spangenburger who had excellent grades, respectable SAT scores, did volunteer work with children, helped his mother (who was in treatment for cancer), AND would be the first in his family to attend college. He longed to study computer science at Cornell or Carnegie-Mellon. Sounds like a great candidate for affirmative action, right? Wrong. He is white. The title of the article was appropriately enough, "Falling Through the Cracks". "Newsweek" published my leter to the editor in which I noted that because of the publicity, Daniel might actually get a nibble for those schools but that many others like him would not. Another letter noted that Daniel should be aware that "often, really bright but poor kids join the military not only to serve their country but to pay for college". This letter writer was one "Name Withheld". By the time this was published, we were in Iraq.

I firmly believe that the US owes the descendants of slaves an opportunity to raise themselves out of poverty. Poverty, poor schools, and isolation can hold a person back, whatever his race. Once such a person has reached comfortable middle class status, however, affirmative action should cease. To continue with it is to suggest that black citizens - even well-educated black citizens - somehow can't compete on their own. One of the most uncomfortable conversations that I have ever had was with a black man who was at pains to assure me that he had gotten into college on his own merit, not affirmative action. Since I had said nothing to suggest that I thought otherwise (I'd asked where he attended college), I have to assume that this was a touchy subject with him and probably others.

Affirmative action never affected white people who have achieved a certain amount of wealth and status, not to mention connections, as I noted in another posting regarding Bill Clinton. It was always working and lower middle class whites who were more likely to be affected and who were expected to make the sacrifices gladly or at least quietly.

One aspect regarding affirmative action that is not generally noted is this: It no longer is engineered to help the descendants of slaves. Diversity is the rule of the day, and other "minorities" including Hispanics are also covered. What is the likely effect on national unity of granting preferential treatment to newly arriving immigrants over long-term US citizens and in competition with the descendants of slaves, whom the program was set up to help in the first place? Those African-Americans and Scotch-Irish may find common cause sooner than you think.



I think the biggest (uva08 - 4/4/2006 11:34:40 PM)
I think the biggest problem with the Affirmative Action debate is that neither side really knows what they are talking about.  Perhaps some of the biggest points that they miss are that: 1. affirmative action is not a federally or state mandated program, schools choose to do it; 2. there is a HUGE misconception that college admissions are all about scores and grades, if you ask any admissions officer they will tell you that it is part of the considerations but by no means ALL hence the major emphasis on essays 3. the justification for affirmative action has shifted from righting past wrongs to a desire for diversity therefore the argument is over how many blacks are "brought up" by the program but rather if diversity is desirable, matters, and leads to a more efficient and complete learning and working environment.


Aand when will we he (Teddy - 4/4/2006 11:34:40 PM)
Aand when will we hear from Webb himself on this? So he started late, then had to leave the state for a family funeral (as I understand it) but these delays and poor scheduling have now put him in the position of having his opponents frame him... exactly what Kerry allowed to happen, oer and over. It's always hard to punch out a bit of hostile gossip. So what we need now is an enormous blast from Webb (preferrably with a strong black leader by his side, or at the same time) expousing his theory of FAIRNESS and conflating the economic problems of lower class blacks and whites (preferrably with some strong labor guy at his side, or simultaneously) so that we get the positive side of Webb's approach to so-called Affirmative Action,

Maybe Doug Wilder???



Wow, this debate and (Doug in Mount Vernon - 4/4/2006 11:34:40 PM)
Wow, this debate and this issue, is not simple.  It is complex, and lots of thoughtful comments have been made.

Given that, I realize that the issuance of these endorsements, and I agree with VaBchDem that most likely the Miller camp provided their soundbites, was a complete and utter disservice to the issue itself.

And Webb's positions on it are, in fact, honorable, even if I don't agree 100%.

Calling Webb a racist is simply inexcusable.  How are we going to ever make more progress on these issues in this country if people don't start seeing this in a non-reactionary light.  That light is exactly what the Miller camp wanted, and unfortunately for them, it's power source won't last very long because any thinking person can see how weak it is.



Also, according to t (d'moore - 4/4/2006 11:34:41 PM)
Also, according to the WSH Post, DeLay will be able to use all the cash he raised for his reelection campaign for his legal defense. If he had run again he would have needed to spend more and his campaign donations take recently had declined precipitously over last quarter.
I also agree (whistfully) that he may be involved in the gangland murder somehow. We know his partner Adam Kidan was. Maybe it's only a matter of time before it comes out that DeLay the exemplary Christian was too.


Actually, what's hap (Doug in Mount Vernon - 4/4/2006 11:34:41 PM)
Actually, what's happening is that Republicans realized they have a better chance to keep TX-22 Republican without Tom Delay--they could see it in the early polling.

There is great irony here in that DeLay's own invincibility/arrogance complex led him to believe that throwing several thousand more Democratic voters into his district wouldn't come close to doing him in.  Ha, ha!  The sacrificial lamb to a Republican Congress.  I love it.



Excellent point, Lib (Lowell - 4/4/2006 11:34:41 PM)
Excellent point, Libertas.  I really wonder what kind of deals Miller cut during his lobbying years.  Obviously, we know Miller donated thousands of dollars to right-wing Republicans like Dennis Hastert, Spencer Abraham, and John Sununu, but what did he get in return?


When you talk about (Libertas - 4/4/2006 11:34:41 PM)
When you talk about the culture of corruption, don't forget HARRIS MILLER, THE LOBBYIST...


I think we should al (Lowell - 4/4/2006 11:34:41 PM)
I think we should all throw a big "Welcome to Virginia" party for Tom DeLay. We could all wear orange jump suits or maybe that Abramoff all-black gangster (or was it Hasidic?) outfit.  Just like Halloween.  Hey, this could be fun! :)


Of no! Is that a Vir (Rebecca - 4/4/2006 11:34:41 PM)
Of no! Is that a Virginia prison?


Doesn't he look nice (Rebecca - 4/4/2006 11:34:41 PM)
Doesn't he look nice in orange? I think that's his color.

I believe what may be happening in the Abramoff trial is that Delay is being implicated with the organized crime. -Just a hunch.



And it turns out tha (uva08 - 4/4/2006 11:34:41 PM)
And it turns out that he will be moving here, to Virginia... I assume to the Northern Virginia.


"Please do show us m (Tom Joad (Kevin) - 4/4/2006 11:34:42 PM)
"Please do show us more. Show us how Miller supported Republicans just like James Webb did. We know James Webb bashed Bill Clinton, anything like that from Miller?"

"You shall then cut the largest tree in the forest with...a HERRING!"



We need more of thes (lenny - 4/4/2006 11:34:42 PM)
We need more of these, Lowell. Lay the facts out about Harris Miller. His record speaks volumes about his very unprogressive principles.


I guess this is what (JC - 4/4/2006 11:34:42 PM)
I guess this is what Harris Miller meant by reaching across the aisle: reaching across to hand over big checks.


"Seems that if Webb (Virginia Centrist - 4/4/2006 11:34:42 PM)
"Seems that if Webb can't beat Miller, he doesnt' stand a chance against Allen."

That statement makes no sense.



Anyone interested in (D Flinchum - 4/4/2006 11:34:42 PM)
Anyone interested in Harris Miller's record on H-1B visas and his undercutting US workers, especially in IT, should check out the Job Destruction Newsletter in
http://www.zazona.com/

I have received JDN for some time and it is devastating to Miller because it notes his unrelenting attack on US workers in gorey detail. It is astonishing to me that HM has a shred of credibility in Democratic circles.

From C/Net News.com
##############################################
Want to know why women's share of tech jobs is shrinking? Look at the temporary guest workers entering the country, most of whom are male.

That's the case being made by a group that advocates on behalf of U.S. software programmers and opposes H-1B visas. The Programmers Guild plans to release a report this week that re-examines data from a workforce diversity study published last week by the Information Technology Association of America industry group (THAT WOULD BE HARRIS MILLER'S FORMER GROUP). Among the guild's arguments: the use of H-1B visas contributes to low shares of information technology jobs held by women and some racial minorities.

"Often employers force their U.S. workers to train their H-1B replacements, under threat of termination for cause and loss of benefits--driving women and underrepresented minorities out of the profession," the report states.

A number of reports, including the recent ITAA study, have documented a decline in women's share of tech jobs. The ITAA found that the percentage of women in the IT workforce dropped from 41 percent in 1996 to 32.4 percent in 2004. That report also discovered that employers hired men at a higher rate than women between 2003 and 2004. The number of unemployed skilled male IT workers dropped 34.4 percent from 189,000 to 124,000, while the number of unemployed skilled female IT workers dropped only 5.2 percent, from 97,000 to 92,000.

According to the ITAA, the declining representation of women is due largely to the fact that one out of every three women in the IT workforce falls into administrative job categories that have experienced significant overall declines in recent years.

The Programmers Guild, though, said a factor in the underrepresentation of women in the IT workforce is that a disproportionate number of H-1B workers are male. The guild cited federal data from 2002, showing that women made up 24 percent of temporary workers and trainees admitted to the country.

###############################################

Hey, you hire a few H-1B's from India and forget your "family friendly" environment, right? Kids are women's work, right? I'm no big fan of Jim Webb's but HM is from hunger!



Matt: There is a (lenny - 4/4/2006 11:34:42 PM)
Matt:

There is a big difference between letting an opponent's record speak for itself and negatively attacking that opponent. The Webb folks, to their credit so far, have not gone the negative attack route, doesn't see the logic in that, and never will. On the other hand, a candidate's record tells a lot without twisting any facts. The truth is the truth.

So I say, we let voters know about Harris Miller's record. There's nothing wrong with that.



Come on, we all know (DangDemocrat - 4/4/2006 11:34:42 PM)
Come on, we all know that Miller only gave $2100 of his own money to Hastert and Abraham. That's not even enough for Hastert to have lunch! It's just like Abramoff only gave $6000 of his own money to Bush. I'm sure the rest was just for the Political well being of the ITAA group and we can trust Miller to put aside two decades of being a lobbyiest and to only honor his new commitments and ideals that he has stated ...... somewhere. Yes they are sure to be somewhere in electronic form with no annoying paper trail. Yup, those old comrades like Diebold are a thing of the past! Time to move on and start laying broadband cable into the rural and mountain areas of VA. That'll educate those backwaters about giving up satellite TV! I mean, educate them into high paying jobs. Why I'm sure Dell and Oracle have a thousand H1B Visa carrying India immigrants ready to move to Essex county on the eastern shore and teach those Latinos with the 2nd grade education (at least the managers had 2nd grade) from the old Purdue plant how to run a database right now! Give the guy a check. I mean a chance! yeah, Give the guy a chance!


The old saying goes (the Gools - 4/4/2006 11:34:42 PM)
The old saying goes "those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones."

Miller has some very unsavory links to the GOP including thousands given personally to several promenant GOP figures and PACS.  It is in the public record. (Go look on campaign donation sites for yourself.)
  The truth is I don't care that much about the donations except when people paint Miller as this "dyed-in-the-wool" Dem, or when people begin digging up dirt on Webb. 

(Webb has little dirt, so it is being spread thin.  Miller has a bit more, so he should be careful lest he destroy himself and "his" party in the process.)

We really should stick together.  Let these transgressions be bygones and and rally to take down the "empty suit" Allen!!!



Miller would do well (Greg - 4/4/2006 11:34:42 PM)
Miller would do well to remember the whole "glass houses" thing... There's an enormous amount of material on him which we haven't even used yet -- well documented through lobbying disclosure forms, Hill testimony transcripts, etc.

Much of Miller's lobbying career was about promoting legislation which would help lower labor costs (like expansions of H1-B visas) for ITAA's members (and the clients of his former lybbying "small business").  Of course, for the people who work for those companies, rather than own them, that means LOWER WAGES...



Please do show us mo (Dem in the Valley - 4/4/2006 11:34:42 PM)
Please do show us more.  Show us how Miller supported Republicans just like James Webb did.  We know James Webb bashed Bill Clinton, anything like that from Miller?

Seems that if Webb can't beat Miller, he doesn't stand a chance against Allen.



Adam: Miller is g (DanG - 4/4/2006 11:34:43 PM)
Adam:

Miller is going for Webb's jugular.  Why shouldn't we do the same to Miller?  And I bet Webb's going to start going after Miller now, as well.



What I intened to me (John K. (John) - 4/4/2006 11:34:43 PM)
What I intened to mean by 'pre-K street' is the idea that an ideologue running a lobbying firm is expected to raise money/give money to canidates from both parties (even if they are partisan) in order to get their agenda accomplished.  Basically what the K-stree project did was try to push the Democrats out of the equation so that everyone gave money to Republicans instead.  Either way, you're right Robert, it's an ugly business.

I just don't think the fact that, while conducting his job as a lobbyist (who has to deal with those in power), Miller gave money to/raised money for Republicans, is really world-ending.  It's just hypocritical of him to pull out all these attacks saying that Webb is just Republican-lite because he worked for Regean, hasn't volunteered for Dems, has nuanced views on AA, etc when he, as a lobbyist, raised/gave money to Republicans.



I would say that pre (John K. (John) - 4/4/2006 11:34:43 PM)
I would say that pre-K street, this type of fundraising was typical (especially when it comes to business PACs).  Usually, its a matter of advancing your cause and doing your job (I mean, I've worked for Walmart and a large chemical company - not exactly the most liberal of places), so I'll give leway.  However, much of Miller's campaign has focused on how he's a Democrat and Webb is really a Republican.  In that context, this evidence is pretty solid that neither is a 'purist' Democrat (hell, I'm not a 'purist).  In my estimation, it's kind of hypocritical to be mad at Miller for raising money for Republicans and not get mad at Webb for working for Republicans and supporting Allen over Robb, etc.  For me, neither is really that much of an issue (Miller has given support for Democrats, and Webb holds a lot of progressive positions).  This just makes Miller look like a hypocrit.

Why can't we all just get along?



Dannyboy, I'm not (Littimer - 4/4/2006 11:34:43 PM)
Dannyboy,

I'm not sure.  I spoke to some people in the campaign, and it sounds like they may be running a defense piece.

Plus, as the Ghost of Tom Joad just said, if both sides kill each other in the primary, it leaves Allen with an insta-win regardless.  This just has the potential to be a bad boat for the democrats.



"That’s what I would (Tom Joad (Kevin) - 4/4/2006 11:34:43 PM)
"That’s what I would like to see, maybe I’m too idealist about it."

I agree. Discuss the issues and bring stuff out about yourself in a positive light. There are plenty of good things that each campaign can bring out about themselves that highlight their positive attributes.

Unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world. This type of "shock and awe" brand of politics is too prevelant not to be used and abused by a 24 hour news cycle. So Webb and his supporters would be misplaying this if they didn't fight back.

The question is are we doing all of the opposition research for Allen already? His campaign will step back and watch us evicerate ourselves until we are so weak that he can push down the last one standing. That's the tragedy.



That didn't take lon (Adam Sharp - 4/4/2006 11:34:43 PM)
That didn't take long.

I'll give this to Webb and his supporters: they know rapid response.



What is the point of (harrismillerfan - 4/4/2006 11:34:43 PM)
What is the point of all this? If this is really the best you guys got, then come November you will just be sitting on the sidelines watching Miller get smashed by 20 points.  Come on.


[...]While I'm sure (Littimer - 4/4/2006 11:34:43 PM)
[...]While I'm sure the Webb campaign appreciates what they are doing, its not the comeback RK probably wants it to be.[...]


Damn! This is just a (Doug in Mount Vernon - 4/4/2006 11:34:44 PM)
Damn! This is just an all-out blog war!

I didn't expect this, and I don't like if it paints Democrats in a bad light to the Republicans.  If it's just revealing our gradients on issues, like this post, I support it.  But if it attempts to attack a candidate's integrity, honesty, and calls him a racist, that's not going to help us.



wow, you have so muc (harrismillerfan - 4/4/2006 11:34:44 PM)
wow, you have so much credability


wow, you have so muc (Lowell - 4/4/2006 11:34:44 PM)
wow, you have so much to add to the discussion


You know, I dunno wh (Craig - 4/4/2006 11:34:45 PM)
You know, I dunno why Miller's being so vicious.  Why can't he just campaign on his merits?  I mean he can point to all the support he's given the state party and the fact that he's run a campaign before.

I have to say that it annoys me when Miller's surrogates try to imply that because Webb was a Republican 20 years ago, he can't be a Democrat now.  Hell, I know fiercely partisan Democrats who were Republicans more recently than that.

And Miller should clarify his dealings with Abraham and Hastert.  Especially the comment that he "hope Abraham gets re-elected."  I mean it's one thing to lobby a guy who has no chance of losing, but Abraham was one of the most vulnerable GOP incumbents in 2000, and in fact did lose to Stabenow.  So sticking w/him even then seems to take most of the wind out of Miller's "I'm-the-real-Democrat" tactic.

Miller should do what Webb did: unequivocally reject his past statements and say that he wouldn't support Abraham and Hastert today.  It wouldn't be hard.



It's becoming pretty (Greg - 4/4/2006 11:34:46 PM)
It's becoming pretty clear that these "trolls with talking points" represent an organized effort.


What discussion Lowe (TotalDem - 4/4/2006 11:34:46 PM)
What discussion Lowell? Face it. Webb is out. We have 7 black leaders who endorsed Miller. Nothing changes that. We have Sen Marsh slamming Webb. We have how many women also choosing Miller. Now we have you and this blog wanting to discredit their choice. Why dont you just tear the whole party down? Those black leaders are smart and elected. The republican blogs are eating this up. Have you read them? You should. A picture of this statue leaves out a couple things. Webb standing behind Perot bitching about a Vietnamese women who helped design it. Bigot. Unless you can get these black leaders to endorse Webb...You lose. Stick a fork in it Lowell. It is done.


Re: that last post. (the Gools - 4/4/2006 11:34:46 PM)
Re: that last post.  I tend to think for myself and examine the facts on my own rather than depending on other people's endorsements.  Endorsements are nice, but in the end ideas and experience are the deciding factors that guide me.  Webb seems to be the only one sticking to presenting his.  And he has them in spades. 

He consistantly has shown class as his campaign response clearly shows.  He confronts Miller's tactics without being Ugly to Miller.  Too bad I can't say the same about Miller.

  I still call on civility in this race.  Run on merit and attack Allen!!! He is the target.



TotalDem: Do you (Virginia Centrist - 4/4/2006 11:34:46 PM)
TotalDem:

Do you realize that the candidate that pays you is utterly pathetic in nearly every way possible?