How do you know Miller has not been involved, in a major way, behind the scenes of Warner's organization.

If not why all this controversy over Warner's neutrality?  Why would Warner (if in fact he is) put so much stock in him?

Wow.  That was trite and petty. 

I want everyone to say after me, "You are not the entire makeup of the Democratic Party of Virginia."

Now repeat about fifty billion times.  OK? 

I am so tired of people slamming every person who may (or may not) be backing Miller.  Like if Warner comes out in support of Harris Miller there goes his presidency.  Bull.  Voters in Iowa and New Hampshire don't care one iota about who Mark Warner backed in 2006.  And neither will grassroots supporters in California, Mississippi, New York and other states who are attracted to the dark horse candidate with the centrist message. 

How can you possibly try to say that you know what will happen in the future if Miller wins the primary "on other people's merits" and then loses to Allen?  First off, I'd love to have you explain what makes Miller different in trying to get as many endorsements as possible.  Thats something that you SHOULD do.  Second, you know that every activist in Virginia is just going to throw their hands up in the air and forget being active in the presidential election?

Oh okay, they'll just start working for Biden or Clinton right?  I mean, why would Virginians want to work for a guy who just appeared on the cover of the New York Times magazine?  Who could possibly win a southern state?  Who is their very popular ex-governor?

Oh thats right, they'd love to see him win.  Is there any possible way you could sound more ridiculous? 

This sounds like a bunch of 13 year olds and their fan-boy club, getting pissy every time their guy is perceived to be slighted. 

Attack the Gen. who came out way to early with the "Women Can't Fight" article.  Attack Con. Moran for halfway supporting Miller cause his mattress is loaded with Miller's money.  But don't attack Warner.  And definetely don't make some sort of all encompassing prediction that activists in the state won't be behind Warner if he doesn't wind up backing Webb. 

You are not the entire makeup of the Democratic Party of Virginia.  You are not the entire makeup of the Democratic Party of Virginia. 

Now repeat. 

Furrycat:
Just a worried supporter, cat. 

James Webb better get out there and start meeting with activists. Harris Miller has been all over the Democratic party in Loudoun and has hired Andy Resnick who ran wonderful campaigns for Poisson and Herring.
I hate to break it to you, but the best candidates don't always win. It's all about connections and James Webb better start making them. People will not get behind a resume they need to meet the person and get inspired.

If Miller was involved in a major way behind the scenes (besides giving money or anything like that), wouldn't we have heard about it by now?  Miller would've said something about it.  On his website he'd talk about how critical he was to Warner's success.  I know a lot of people would be more inclined to listen to him if he was a major factor in Warner's success, like Kaine was.  I would.  Instead, when he runs promising to be like Warner without any evidence that he will, he draws skepticism (which is only natural).

I don't think Warner has put that much stock in Miller...at least no more than Webb.  I believe him when he says he's neutral.  But remember, in politics, it's not about the actual truth, but the image to the public. 

I'LL SUPPORT MARK WARNER'S DECISION NO MATTER WHAT.  But, if you remember MANY blogs after the rumors started, not everybody will.  We bloggers have a larger and larger say in Virginia politics thanks to our ability to reach out to activists.  This whole post wasn't a plea for Webb's sake, but for Warner's.  He's our best chance for 2008, and I don't want anybody speaking poorly about him.  Dean went froma nobody to front runner for most of the campaign thanks to activists.  Kerry had a better primary staff and won, which proves that activists can't do it all for you.  But having their support can't hurt.  I don't think Dean is tied to the activists in any way.  He chooses to say what he does, and many activists like it.  I don't.

You make a good point, John K.  It may very well be wise for Warner to just stay out of it.  However, part of me believes that it's not fair for Warner to claim neutraility while helping Miller raise money, even if it was done on the premise of keeping a promise.  I trust that Warner wants to stay neutral and do the right thing, but it hardly seems fair to me to help one guy out and not the other if your not going to publicly support him.

(btw - Warner NEEDS that 5-10% jump, dude.  He polls pretty low in most straw-polls save South Carolina.  Hillary pretty much dominates the scene, and a victory over Allen may be pretty important to Warner beating her.  If Warner can help bring down Allen, he proves that what he did in Virginia was lasting.  If not, he loses some momentum, which he'll need lots of).

Remember, I'm not writing this article as a Webb-head, but as a HUGE Warner fan.  Every political analyst I've talked to has told me it would be wise for Warner to stay out of the primary.  I ask them if it could be damaging, most say "there's a chance."  I happen to be a Warnerite who's not willing to take that chance over a Senate seat.  Mark Warner should be our next President, and I just don't want him doing anything that could potentially cause any fallout.

It's kind of funny that I think I might have been the first one to suggest the second fundraiser for Webb a while back.  But on this one, I think I'm more with Sean and Matusleo's comment about Warner being there for a friend.

I think that if Warner does nothing else during the primary, he will be seen (rightly) as being neutral.  That's probably where the political safeground lies.

I like Webb, and I like you guys, but damned if you aren't in a tisy every time you see something as a slight to Webb.  The attack by the Miller camp over the 30 year old article demanded that kind of indignation; this does not.  Cool your jets and let Warner do what Warner will do.  If you repect the guy, trust him to do what is right.  I haven't been let down.

(btw - this in no way hurts Warner's presidential cred.  Allen is seen (conventional wisdom) as undefeatable.  If Warner helps in the general, and knocks off Allen, he jumps 5-10% in the Democratic polls.  If not, he doesn't fall off the radar, cause, hey, this is Virginia; no one expects a win in the Senate)

Sean:  As I said, I'm not trying to criticize Warner.  I'll be voting for him in 2008 regardless, because he's the best man for President.  My loyalty to him will remain no matter what happens in the fall.  He's a good guy, and a good leader.  I'm only offering advice.  Nothing else.  Look at Blogs like Daily Kos.  Webb supporters.  Will this ruin his campaign?  Of course not.  There's still a big chance he pulls it off anyways.  I'm just afraid for his campaign, that's all.  The Kossacks can't decide an election, but they may be able to make a diffence.  Warner is still relatively unknown out there, and the Kossacks may be able to get out the first impression.  I'd rather that be positive, that's all.

Again, I believe I specifically pointed out that he shouldn't back Webb.  He shouldn't back EITHER, hence the title of the article.  It is my opinion that the safest political move for Warner would be to stay out.  Unfortunately, he already did that fundraiser for Miller (I believe him when he said he agreed to it when Miller was alone).  Maybe the best way to look neutral is to do the same for Webb.  That's all I'm saying.

Jon Sheridan:  There's a difference between Harris and Tim when it comes to "working with others merits."  Tim Kaine was DIRECTLY INVOLVED with Warner's plans as Lt. Governor.  Kaine worked side-by-side with Warner through all his initiatives.  In my mind, that gives him rights to some of that merit, as Tim Kaine was an integral part of Mark Warner's success.  Harris Miller wants to run on Mark Warner and Tim Kaine's success without being a part of it.  He wants to step in and say he'll be like them without any evidence of it.  THAT'S what I think will hurt against Allen.  Kaine had a claim to the Warner success in 2005.  What claim does Miller have to it in 2006.  That's my fear.

What Sean said. Yeah.

If Miller wins the primary I'm writing in Webb's name.

And I agree that Warner is in a very difficult situation.  The least he could do is appear to be fair.

  "And as Dean proved, activists can’t win a primary for you, but they can give you an extra boost, which is all Warner may need."

And as Dean proved, they can actually lock you into a path that guaranties defeat.

Because a politician who is too tied to activists are guided by their very very narrow desires and appeals, and lack wide appeal.

  If you want proof, go look at Dean's poll numbers.

"if Harris Miller wins on other people’s merits, then we will not be able to defeat George Allen"

If my memory serves me correctly . . .

. . . oh yes, how could one forget all that direct mail we got last year from the Kaine campaign?  You know, all the ones with Mark Warner on them!  Oh, and those Warner Robo-calls, Warner stumping, Warner radio, Warner tv . . .

It would  be interesting to do a count on how many times Kaine said, "Warner", in his stump speech.

Now what was that about wining "on other people's merits"?

One of the things that is so difficult about politics is that die-hards on either side are so passionate about you one way or another, it often interferes with a politician being able to conduct himself like a normal human being.

I am perfectly content with the understanding that Mark Warner was tere for a friend as a friend.  That does not bother me in the least.

If Warner were going around trying to pressure Webb to drop out of the primary, then your contention that Warner is acting to control instead of support the party here would be correct.  But it seems to me that he is taking a hands-off approach to the primary, and if I'm not mistaken, the fundraiser for Miller was conducted before Webb announced he was running.

My point is that the netroots comunity is getting all worked up about rumour and allowing themselves to hurt Warner because he isn't doing exactly what we want.  Personally, I think any candidate who runs around like a marionette is destined to fail.  He is the politician, and he has surprised us before.

Let us not forget that in 2003 almost all of Warner's initiatives failed.  Everyone thought he put his career on the line with the local tax increase ballot initiative, and when that went down in flames, some thought his career was over.  But Warner didn't stop.  He pirouetted, and came back strong, and actually got the Virginia House and Senate to do the right thing and be responsible government!! 

Warner took defeat and turned it into victory.  Do not forget that.

I recommend that you call and email Mark Warner's office and kindly and politely suggest that he do a fundraiser for Webb and perhaps do a joint appearance with both Webb and Miller and tell Virginia that there are two great men to choose from to take out George Allen.  And then also kindly call Webb's office and ask him to talk to Mark about the same thing.

That's likely the best thing you can do instead of being the usual netroots "If I don't get what I want, I'm going to be a disnechanted voter come November, grumble grumble". 

Your contention is serious, I know, and I do not mock it lightly.  But the last thing you want to do is join in a stampede against Warner or our Democratic nominees.

I have to say that I'm on Sean's side of this debate.  I ate crow when I posted nearly the same article a few weeks ago.  I thought we had laid the debate to rest.  I certainly intended to.

Mark Warner is Virginia's most successful Democrat, he's served us well and I hope he will carry the standard of the Democratic party in 2008.  The Webb campaign has no beef with Mark Warner and it's wrong of RK to even indirectly imply that it does. 

RK supports Progressive values and the Democratic Party is the natural home for those values.  If there are internal tensions around the need for political unity, we work together and come out together because we're stronger together. 

Democrats are stronger and more united than ever in recent memory.  As the Republicans implode, it will take all of our united strength to take them down for the good of the nation.  We need good Democrats like Warner, Kaine, Webb and Miller to help lead that charge. 

If Miller isn't our nominee for the Senate this year, I'll be there to support him when in the future he runs again.  I hope he will. 

whoops in my angry hazy I posted whilst typing.

That was a fine pulling ourselves up by our shoe strings contest! a pissing in the wind contest, what have you.  let the healing begin.

We are all on the same side.  Give Dannyboy some credit, he is trying to articulate is ideas of how things should be going down.

I personal apologize for my part in it.

But now I must direct my wrath towards: DINOS?

What the fuck? Do you know what sort of mentality the use of that phrase reveals?

I hope you jest, that you are not one of those DFA people who want to replicate the liberal version of what those conservative wackjobs have accomplished. 

You know, because trying to govern from the hard fringes of your party has worked so well for them, and the country, right?

Sorry, I know I just said we are all on the same side, but if anyone ever calls me a DINO . . .

Because I don't adhere to some sort of abstract party line liberal purity.  Goodness, next thing we know we will be having Stalinist purges of the party ranks: swear loyalty to Howard Dean or die!

I don't see why this is being viewed as an attack on Warner, becuase it's NOT!

I'll say this for the last time, I'LL SUPPORT MARK WARNER NO MATTER WHAT!

This wasn't meant to speak for the Webb campaign, nor to imply Warner has done anything wrong.  It was merely a suggestion!

I was just trying to let an opinion out, that's all.  However, if this post really angers everybody, I'll be happy to ask Lowell to take it off.  Remember, I'm just trying to help Warner make a decision, and if it's not helping, there's no need for it.

I think every person should be able to support whomever they want. However, we are dancing around an issue that is going to surface. That is the butting of heads of the traditional Democrats and DINOS and the Progressives. Its coming so be ready. Its a healthly thing. I think the important thing is to remain to true to your values, and let the chips fall where they may.

I guess it's time to eat some crow:

I apologize for this post.  It wasn't necessary.  It probably did more damage than anything else.

I'm a huge Warner fan.  I had no intention of attacking or insulting, but apparently I have.

This was a mistake, and a big one at that.  I take back everything I said in this post.  I may be nervous for Warner, but he's been in tight spots before and come out unharmed.  I guess I'll just have to trust him again. 

I'm sorry for this post, and I take full responsiblity for this.  It was a pointless rant from a nervous guy.  Hopefully everyone will forgive me and I'll be able to write again.

I meant worried Warner supporter, cat, but you get the idea.

Danny - I don't think you meant this as an attack on Warner, and I don't think it is.  I just think it's a bit hysterical with the: 'Warner has raised money for Miller and so HAS to raise money for Webb to be neutral, and he'll loss credibility if he doesn't.'(paraphrase) 

I agree that he probably could come off as more neutral if he did a fundraiser for Webb (or match the money raised by the Miller fundraiser with funds from his Move Forward PAC since he can't use that money for a presidential bid.  Ideally, probably the best idea to ensure 'fairness').  I just don't think that it is necessary for him to do so.  If he says he is neutral and only did a fundraiser because he promised before there was a primary contest, well, I believe him and I think the voters will believe Mr 70%.

Helping out Webb would be nice, and probably 'fair', but it is not necessary for Warner to be able to wash his hands of the primary.  Let's all just stay on the ball and get rid of Cowboy George Jr.

"The majority of us in the Virginia progressive blogosphere are Webb support but, we also all have the same goal of the expansion of progressive politics. To do that we must stick together and not bash each other over petty things that only hurt our cause."

Sorry Jon, this should have been a separate statement from the rest of my comment.  This was meant as a general statement for all Web support not a direct opinion about the post.

While I do believe this post went a little overboard, it's not what I would consider bashing.  I can see where people might get a feeling that Warner is playing favoritism toward Miller; but, as previously argued by others, Warner has claimed neutrality and he has given no reason for me to question his sincerity in that. I agree with Lowell, you should not apologize for your opinions.

I believe DINO means your views match those of the majority of Republicans. I think its a legitimate acronym. If views don't matter maybe we just shouldn't discuss them, but I'm for letting people have their say. If someone wants to label me then that's their right in a Democracy. I don't take it personally. I'm no liberal and I'm no conservative. My views are in between. If someone labels me a liberal that doesn't really change the fact that I don't agree with a lot of liberal views. I don't need to fight labels if I am secure with my own views.

DEMOCRAT IN NAME ONLY

Yeah, and my mom also told me that the kids on the bus only made fun of me because they liked me.

Don't hide behind that Democracy curtain . . . I think that it is well know in these circles, we are in a Democracy. 

We are talking about issues of personal responsibility.  Saying, "hey dude its a free country", makes you sound like one of those stupid Young R's who are putting up the Muhammad cartons everywhere.

And don't hide behind, you should be tough enough to be called names:

If someone called you a bitch, I am sure you wouldn't be too happy about, no matter how secure you where in the fact that you where not a bitch.

No mater how you spin it DINO is a derogatory phrase, it is meant to ostracize and cast suspicion on those who do not meet some sort of litmus test of a small minority (hence, a self-appointed elite). 

Granted, politics is rough stuff, but as a party we are supposed to not eat one another alive.

The mentality that spouts of DINO, is by its very nature cannibalistic.

"DINO means your views match those of the majority of Republicans."

I wonder is Webb a DINO?  Was Howard Dean DINO when he sold his state out to the power utilities?

But most importantly I am wondering why on earth would anyone go through all the trouble to be D when really they where an R? 

Maybe they are just closeted, they can't handle the social recrimination?  Or, maybe, just maybe there is some issue that is the most important issue to them, that is a tenet of the Democratic party. 

This is what you get when fervent partisans on DKOS, MyDD, RK etc open their mouths without considering the implications first. Would I like the Dem party to nominate the best candidate for the general? Yes. Will I vote for him/her? Maybe yes. Do I care if Warner likes another candidate? No. Does Warner have one vote like me? Yes. Point is this...RK,MyDD,KOS (who by the way has gone 0-19 in backing dems in Congressional Districts) DO NOT REPRESENT THE BREADTH AND DEPTH OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF AMERICA....DAMMITTT!!! You guys are beginning to act like the Freepers and Red Staters who live in an echo chamber..What the hell is this???? I mean do you have a monopoly of electability? Give us a break..we like Warner and unlike you are comfortable with him whether we agree with him on some issues or not. We don't have one track minds ( my wife and I don't agree all the time yet we've been happily married for 25 yrs)...if you want a Gogo Robot doing your bidding then get Russ Feingold, John Kerry of one of those DC based socialist losers..leave Warner alone..he has one vote just like you and I...you work for your guy, let him work for his and come primary day..may the better candidate win. NUFF SAID!!!!

PS: I take your apology as a friend and hope to God Lowell that you have learnt your lesson..we don't have to dance to the same tune all the time to win elections.

On another note..why don't you just delete the post and all this will be water under the bridge..

This post should by no means be deleted.  It is no worse than Lowell's "Harris Miller: Money Talks" post a couple days ago.  However, this post struck a nerve that brought about a very productive debate over just exactly what type of campaigning is going to be done by RK's writers.  I think this debate has shown what type of campaign the readers/supporters would like to see and will hopefully bring back the focus on getting the best candidate and beating Allen with a positive foreword looking message.  The majority of us in the Virginia progressive blogosphere are Webb support but, we also all have the same goal of the expansion of progressive politics.  To do that we must stick together and not bash each other over petty things that only hurt our cause.

I hope I have not drifted into bashing.

I will keep my calm in the future.

But, I feel strongly about this DINO thing, simply because I used to be endless amused (and hopeful) at the reactionary and self-destructive nature of the rightwing wakos.

I love how in their quest to rid their party of the supposed RINO's, and appeal exclusively to their base; they have made it impossible for them to actually govern. 

You need no more evidence than our very own House of Representatives

I saw this as a good thing for the progressive cause. 

And feel that the rising progressive tide must be based on a Warner like politics as an antidote to the win at any cost partisan politics of the Republicans.

So, I hit the goddamn roof when I saw the progressive incarnation of this self-destructive tendency.

For the record, I don't believe in deleting posts.  And we're not going to start now, that's for sure.

As far as Dan is concerned, he is one of the best young Democrats in Virginia - dedicated, passionate, hard-working,  you name it. Obviously, he loves James Webb and he loves Mark Warner.  I see nothing here to indicate anything but concern on Dan's part for the best interests of both men.  Frankly, I think that some here have simply misread what Dan wrote.  Dan should be proud of who he is and what he wrote, and not apologize for it.  That's just my opinion, for what it's worth.  Others obviously can disagree -that's why we're Democrats, after all! :)

Thanks, Lowell, but I think an apology is in order.  Misread or not, I shouldn't have posted anything that controversial.  It wasn't a good idea.  Hopefully, I'll be able to post something of a better quality at some later time.

That was a fine pulling ourselve up by our shoe strings contest! a pissing in the wind contest, what have you.  let the healing begain.

We are all on the same side.  Give Dannyboy some credit, he is trying to articulate is ideas of how things should be going down.

I personal appologize for my part in it.

But now I must direct my wrath towards: DINOS?

What the fuck? Do you know what sort of mentality the use of that phrase reveas?

I hope you jest, that you are not one of those DFA people who want to replicate the liberal version of what those conservative wackjobs have acoplished. 

You know because trying to govern from the hard fringes of your party has worked so well for them and the country, right?

Sorry, I know I just said we are all on the same side, but if anyone ever calls me a DINO . . .

Because I dont adhere to some sort of abstract party line liberal purity.  Goodness next thing we know we will be having Stalinist purgess of the party ranks.

ScottCo:

Webb grew up in SW and I know he'll be travelling in your neighborhood. 

Yeah..Leslie Byrne endorsing Webb makes a whole difference in the election. Look..I'm not a blogger or a "progressive" per se (I'm progresssive in some ways and conservative in others). I hope either Demcorat knocks off Allen but I'm not that optimistic..however, I am very optimistic about Mark Warner (i've met him and he makes a lot of sense). I'm more to his right on most issues but I'll gladly tolerate our differences to get him elected...y'all outta try the same thing.

Demo:  Just a suggestion, but perhaps you might want to meet Webb before you make a final decision?  Most people I know who've met Webb - mywelf included - have been VERY impressed.  He's certainly not just a "resume."  Thanks.

Demo:

1.  Robb didn't lose because of Jim Webb.  He lost because of scandals of drugs and infidelity.  I mean, he got caught in a hotel room with Miss Virginia.  He also was outspent 3 to 1.  He also didn't start campaigning until August.  THAT'S why Robb lost.  True, he'd be better than Allen, but Webb had very little to do with Robb's loss.
2.  Good point.  I still think favoring either side would be dangerous, but that's just me.
3.  If you want to know more, Webb just blogged on Daily Kos.  You should go read it, it was VERY informative.
4.  Leslie Byrne, a strong feminist, supports him and believes he respects women.  If she trusts him, I'll trust him.