Hillary flips out

By: Terry85
Published On: 2/23/2008 6:52:53 PM

Hillary Clinton just doesn't get it. Democrats are overwhelmingly rejecting negative campaign attacks between herself and opponent Barack Obama as evidenced in the last debate between the two where she was actually booed when the crowd perceived her to be attacking Obama. Then, on a campaign stop today in Ohio with Democratic Governor Ted Strickland, she lashed out at Obama in perhaps one of the most desperate (and sad) attempts to remain relevant this campaign season.
"Shame on you, Barack Obama. It is time you ran a campaign consistent with your messages in public - that's what I expect from you," Clinton said angrily, waving the mailings in the air.

"Meet me in Ohio, and let's have a debate about your tactics," she added.

Uh, Hillary, Obama never claimed he wouldn't tell the truth. Your health care plan will in fact punish people who don't purchase health care. And who do you think can't afford to purchase health care to avoid government penalties you would impose?

Hillary went on to say:

"Enough about the speeches, and the big rallies, and then using tactics right out of Karl Rove's playbook. This is wrong and every Democrat should be outraged," Clinton said.
Since when is there something wrong with giving a speech or being an eloquent speaker? Since when is there anything wrong with holding huge rallies? I mean, have you ever seen a candidate fill 20,000 seat arenas to the capacity in large cities across the country? Since when have we ever had a candidate assemble such a diverse and energized coalition of voters so early in a Presidential election season? This is an exciting time to be a Democrat and Hillary Clinton trying to "divide and conquer" Democratic voters is a carbon copy of a page out of Karl Rove's playbook.

All of this just days after she expressed how honored she was to be running against Barack Obama at the Democratic debate in Houston on February 21:

"No matter what happens in this contest...and I am honored, I am honored to be here with Barack Obama, I am absolutely honored, and you know...whatever happens, we're gonna be fine, you know we have strong support from our families and our friends. I just hope that we'll be able to say the same thing about the American people; and that's what this election should be about."
[Cross posted at Daily Kos]

Comments



Very unfortunate. (Ingrid - 2/23/2008 7:45:21 PM)
Sen. Clinton sounded so desperate today. Her rant did not project the confident, experienced politician that she purports to be. Very disappointing.


I saw it on the news (Lowell - 2/23/2008 7:48:28 PM)
and didn't notice any point where she actually addressed the substance of the fliers -- support for NAFTA and for health care mandates (with penalties).   Basically, it was all shouting and bluster.  Yawn.


Such a rash reaction too (Terry85 - 2/23/2008 8:48:30 PM)
She came off as a hot headed novice.  Nobody likes to lose but geez!


Yeah, I'd be ticked too (aznew - 2/23/2008 8:59:32 PM)
if someone lied about something I'd spent twenty or so years of my life on.


Equal rights (Ingrid - 2/23/2008 11:52:59 PM)
What struck me was that Sen. Clinton stated that Sen. Obama did not have the "right" to attack her.  I had no idea that only she has the right to attack and others don't.


Contrived and rehearsed, but why? (FMArouet21 - 2/23/2008 11:28:29 PM)

The "meltdown" struck me as being carefully orchestrated and rehearsed. The art of acting involves summoning genuine emotion, and Hillary has gotten nearly as good at doing "angry and offended" as she has at doing "vulnerable and caring."

But it is still an act.

Why now? Why this vitriolic complaint about old mailers?

It appears to be a strategic blunder akin to the race-baiting of New Hampshire and South Carolina. The race-baiting by Hillary, Bill, and numerous surrogates backfired big-time as the Clinton campaign tried, but failed, to marginalize Obama as merely the "black candidate." This latest attack seems intended to hold on to the votes of low information voters in Ohio, especially low-information white females. If Hillary can play the aggrieved victim, perhaps she can retain enough of that demographic to squeak through with a modest victory at least in Ohio, even though she seems to have been out-organized by Obama's team in Texas.

Will it work? After what happened in New Hampshire, I suppose anything is possible. But today's performance, contrived as it was, was so petulant and off-putting that I would be willing to make a modest wager that it will drive away almost as many women as it will surely drive away men. The entire performance will make many undecided voters' backs involuntarily crinkle in revulsion.

If this is the best tactic that Mark "Jabba" Penn can offer at this late stage of the campaign, Hillary really should demand a return of some of Penn's millions of dollars in consultant's fees. Is Penn really just another one of the Producers?

Sun Tzu's ancient observation seems to apply perfectly to Hillary's tactical rant today, as well as to the likely outcome;

Tactics without strategy is the noise preceding defeat.

After today's staged meltdown, about all that is left of Hillary's campaign is an empty black cape under a pointy black hat.



Hillary: How can I fail? Let me count the ways. (Rebecca - 2/23/2008 11:53:15 PM)
At this time it seems to me that Hillary is just going back to a poluted well with everything she is doing in the campaign.

It reminds me of that poem about how many ways can I love thee, etc., etc. Except for Hillary it seems to be "How many ways can I fail?"

How Many Ways can I Fail?

by Hillary Rodham Clinton

I can fail by allow my husband to race bate Democrats.
I can fail by having my staff overspend as if the race were over and then run out of money in the middle of the campaign.
Or maybe I can fail by making up non-existent outrages.
I can fail by denying that I ever supported my husband's policies.
-And then relying on my husband's record as if it were my own.
I can fail by allowing my position on the war to bend with the winds of public opinion.
I can fail by parroting the words of over priced consultants instead of writing my own speeches like my opponent.
Or perhaps I can fail even more by making fun of my opponent's inspiration and hope.
I can fail by critizing my opponents elquent speaking style and large crowds.
Or perhaps I can fail the leadership test by becoming nervous and fearful and losing my cool when under pressure.
I can fail by being in denial about what really inspires my base.
And I can continually fail by assuming that all along I should have been the nominee in spite of the unfolding of events.

How many ways can I fail? Let me count the ways.



There are several scathing diaries (Lowell - 2/23/2008 7:57:24 PM)
at Daily Kos on this.  For instance, see here, here and here.


Hillary Clinton on NAFTA (Lowell - 2/23/2008 8:10:46 PM)
See here for the facts:

2006/2008: Newsday Reviewed Clinton's Statements, Concluded She Supported NAFTA. According to a Newsday issues rundown, "Clinton thinks NAFTA has been a boon to the economy." Newsday wrote in 2008, the word "boon" was their "characterization of how we best understood her position on NAFTA, based on a review of past stories and her public statements." [New York Newsday, 9/11/06; Newsday blog, 2/15/08]

2003: Hillary Clinton Expounded on Benefits of NAFTA, Calling it An Important Legislative Goal. "Creating a free trade zone in North America-the largest free trade zone in the world-would expand U.S. exports, create jobs and ensure that our economy was reaping the benefits, not the burdens, of globalization. Although unpopular with labor unions, expanding trade opportunities was an important administration goal. The question was whether the White House could focus its energies on two legislative campaigns at once [NAFTA and health care]. I argued that we could and that postponing health care would further weaken its chances." [Living History, 182]

2003: Clinton Called NAFTA a "Victory" For President Clinton. In her memoir, published in 2003, Clinton wrote, "Senator Dole was genuinely interested in health care reform but wanted to run for President in 1996. He couldn't hand incumbent Bill Clinton any more legislative victories, particularly after Bill's successes on the budget, the Brady bill and NAFTA." [Living History, p.231]

1998: Clinton Praised Corporations for Their Efforts On Behalf of NAFTA. The Buffalo News reported, "As first lady, Hillary Clinton had nothing to do with either trade move. Nor has she repudiated them. In a 1998 World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, she praised corporations for mounting "a very effective business effort in the U.S. on behalf of NAFTA." [Buffalo News (New York), 7/16/07]

Given how unpopular "free trade" agreements like NAFTA are these days, especially in places like Ohio, no wonder Hillary's so upset!



Hillary Romneying? (Hugo Estrada - 2/24/2008 10:42:00 AM)
Romneying: bringing attention to a trait that one has that is considered negative by the electorate in the hopes of making your opponent look bad.

One of the tactics which made be believe that Romney was going to lose the nomination was how he was push polling about his Mormon religion against himself to make McCain look bad. Rather the voters, rather than getting the idea that McCain was a creep, couldn't stop obsessing about how Romney is a Mormon.

So Mark Penn decided to use a similar tactic and bring to Ohio's attention Clinton's role in NAFTA????



Also, see this (Lowell - 2/23/2008 8:18:13 PM)
front page Daily Kos diary by georgia10:

But more disturbing is exactly what Hillary said.  Leaving aside claims of Republican trickery, the most telling part of her speech was when she seemingly claimed that Obama has no "right" to attack her on health care.  Since when is a candidate's position on a given issue off-limits?  Since when can a candidate claim that because I put forth position X, you can't debate me on that position?  Of course, Hillary's point is that because Obama hasn't put forth a "universal" health care plan, he can't criticize it or ask how her plan will be enforced.  But even this too is absurd.

And indeed, it has all become absurd, hasn't it?  Clearly, the Clinton camp has chosen to ride the Mark Penn strategy of negativity straight through Texas and Ohio.  So we get a fiery Hillary chastising Obama ("shame on you, Barack Obama"), and challenging him to "meet me in Ohio," as if we were in the middle of a grade school fight instead of a presidential campaign.    

Welcome to the height of silly season, folks.  It's going to be a wild ride.    



*Sigh* (aznew - 2/23/2008 8:55:45 PM)
I guess this has to be debunked one more time.

The Obama flier on Clinton's health care proposal should be condemned, ot supported.

Here are the facts from factcheck.org:

http://www.factcheck.org/elect...

I haven't had a chance to look at the other mailer on NAFTA, but this attack, and by extension this attack, on Clinton's health plan is grossly misleading.

Not only is it misleading, it employs deceptive right-wing talking points against the plan that have been used to deny health care to millions and millions of Americans.

sorry, but quite apart from Clinton's performance,  defending this Obama flier demonstrates skewed priorities.



Ooops (aznew - 2/23/2008 9:12:11 PM)
Turns out that alleged quote by Clinton saying NAFTA was a "boon" is a bit inaccurate too.

By "inaccurate," I mean she never said it.

I'm not suggesting that Clinton's support for NAFTA is not a legit issue, or that she needs to answer for it.

But for goodness sakes, folks, think about  your reflexive defense of everything Obama.

Support your candidate. Don't support lies.



It's not a lie that Clinton supported NAFTA (Lowell - 2/23/2008 9:25:51 PM)
How is that a "reflexive defense of everything Obama?"


The flier inaccurately states (aznew - 2/23/2008 9:29:18 PM)
that she said NAFTA was a "boon" to the economy. In quotations.

She never said it. Never. Ever. Never.



Did she support NAFTA (Lowell - 2/23/2008 9:41:05 PM)
or not?  Whether or not she used the exact word "boon" -- Newsday had apparently reported that, now is retracting it -- the answer is that she strongly supported NAFTA, as did her husband's administration.  What, she can take credit for all her "experience" in the White House during Bill Clinton's presidency but when it comes to unpopular stuff like NAFTA, she had nothing to do with it?  It's laughable.


You are avoiding the issue (aznew - 2/23/2008 9:51:46 PM)
I clearly state in my comment:

I'm not suggesting that Clinton's support for NAFTA is not a legit issue, or that she need [not] answer for it. (corrected)

The flier clearly suggests (more than suggests, actually) Clinton said something she did not say, regardless of her position.

I guess "truthiness" is okay when used by Obama against Clinton.



I directly addressed the so-called "issue" (Lowell - 2/23/2008 10:20:14 PM)
of the word "boon."  That came from a Newsday report that the newspaper is now backing way from. Obviously, it's easier to get distracted on a particular word than on the important policy issue at hand. I've asked several times, and will continue to ask, did Hillary Clinton support NAFTA during the 1990s or not? If she did, then what's the problem here (aside from the word "boon," taken from that apparently erroneous Newsday article) with Obama pointing it out?  If she didn't support NAFTA during the 1990s, at the same time that she was such an integral part of the Clinton Administration (hence her claim to all those years of experience), then what's the deal exactly?  Did she have a lot less influence than she claims to have?  I remain puzzled. I also remain deeply suspicious about this sudden outburst of "anger," given that this flier's been out for a while. It seems like Mark Penn et al. can't quite decide what to do, play nice or play nasty, in the week leading up to Texas and Ohio.


Speaking of "truthiness!" (Lowell - 2/24/2008 7:01:50 AM)
If this isn't "truthiness," I don't know what is.

Former President Bill Clinton was a vigorous supporter of Nafta. He lobbied Congress to pass legislation authorizing the agreement and signed it into law despite objections from fellow Democrats, who believed that it would cost the country jobs.

Mrs. Clinton strenuously distanced herself from that Saturday. She said "the agreement was negotiated" during the administration of her husband's predecessor, President George H.W. Bush, and "passed in the Clinton administration."

Right, NAFTA was just passively "passed" during the Clinton Administration.  Bill Clinton didn't send his VP, Al Gore, to argue for the free trade agreement against Ross Perot on Larry King's show?  The Clinton Administration didn't launch a full-court press to get the deal through Congress?  My memory must be failing me, I could have sworn...



And Clinton's support of NAFTA is a matter of record (aznew - 2/24/2008 9:17:48 AM)
That is not the issue here. The issue here is the attribution of the word "boon" to her, something she never said.

Is the position of this blog now that it is okay to attribute words to someone they never said as long as it supports a larger point that one is trying to argue? Wasn't there just a big to-do at this site over that very issue?

As for the timing of Clinton's outburst, I am shocked -- shocked, I tell you -- to find out that a candidate might be using a tactic to sway voters. What will this evil, manipulative candidate do next? Make a speech? Air a commercial. The horror!



For the 10th time (Lowell - 2/24/2008 9:22:22 AM)
She was reported to have said it, now the newspaper appears to be backing off the exact word "boon" but not the overall sentiment of strong support for NAFTA.  Why on earth you think this is the issue, as opposed to the disaster of "free trade," is beyond me.


Correctoin: It's not "beyond me" (Lowell - 2/24/2008 9:24:57 AM)
I know exactly why Clinton supporters want to focus on silly stuff like a particular word as opposed the extremely important issue in question.  The answer:  NAFTA and other "free trade" agreements are, rightly or wrongly, very unpopular in places like Ohio.  In other words, Obama's mailer hit Clinton hard where it hurts, and she knows it, hence the "flip out." It's all very clear and also very calculated.


And Hillary freaking out (Hugo Estrada - 2/24/2008 10:45:57 AM)
Will bring more attention to the Clinton's support for NAFTA. Heckava job, Marky...


As I believe I have made clear (aznew - 2/24/2008 9:31:25 AM)
they are both issues.

One issue is Clinton's support of NAFTA.

The other issue is Obama's character.

The third issue, for me, not the candidates, is the loss of perspective Obama supporters have when it comes to defending their candidate, and their inability to admit any mistake or misjudgment on his part.  



You're attacking Obama's character? (Lowell - 2/24/2008 9:38:36 AM)
Are you really sure you want to go there, given your candidate's....er, somewhat checkered past?

By the way, I strongly recommend that everyone read Frank Rich's column in today's New York Times:

Clinton fans don't see their standard-bearer's troubles this way. In their view, their highly substantive candidate was unfairly undone by a lightweight showboat who got a free ride from an often misogynist press and from naïve young people who lap up messianic language as if it were Jim Jones's Kool-Aid. Or as Mrs. Clinton frames it, Senator Obama is all about empty words while she is all about action and hard work.

But it's the Clinton strategists, not the Obama voters, who drank the Kool-Aid. The Obama campaign is not a vaporous cult; it's a lean and mean political machine that gets the job done. The Clinton camp has been the slacker in this race, more words than action, and its candidate's message, for all its purported high-mindedness, was and is self-immolating.

Meanwhile, here's the scene inside the Clinton campaign:

... while advisers are drawing some hope from Mrs. Clinton's indefatigable nature, some are burning out.

Morale is low. After 13 months of dawn-to-dark seven-day weeks, the staff is exhausted. Some have taken to going home early - 9 p.m. - turning off their BlackBerrys, and polishing off bottles of wine, several senior staff members said.

Some advisers have been heard yelling at close friends and colleagues. In a much-reported incident, Mr. Penn and the campaign advertising chief, Mandy Grunwald, had a screaming match over strategy recently that prompted another senior aide, Guy Cecil, to leave the room. "I have work to do - you're acting like kids," Mr. Cecil said, according to three people in the room.

Others have taken several days off, despite it being crunch time. Some have grown depressed, be it over Mr. Obama's momentum, the attacks on the campaign's management from outside critics or their view that the news media has been much rougher on Mrs. Clinton than on Mr. Obama...

Not a pretty picture. No wonder why Clinton is lashing out.



Surprise, surprise (legacyofmarshall - 2/24/2008 12:29:32 PM)
When I read that clip there I failed to read your source and was wondering what rumor-rag or quasi-tabloid was publishing those stories.  Good think I clicked on the link...

The New York Times.  Guess it's more than rumors.

With the Times going on the attack against McCain and publishing stuff like this about Clinton... could they be changing their minds about who the next president should be...



That's not the NY Times (aznew - 2/24/2008 1:30:14 PM)
it is Frank Rich. There is a huge difference.

The Times' op ed page is clear that it does not exercise control over the content of its contributors. It doesn't even make them print corrections when they get something wrong, leaving it instead up to each individual columnist.

Furthermore, at the Times, the news pages (which published the McCain article) and the op-ed pages, operate independently of one another.



Straw man alert! (Lowell - 2/24/2008 1:43:08 PM)
Who ever said that Frank Rich and the NY Times were one and the same?


Double Straw Man Alert!! (aznew - 2/24/2008 1:46:26 PM)
legacyofmarshall did.


A bit off topic, but... (Lowell - 2/24/2008 2:24:13 PM)
...check out this new Rasmussen poll for Wisconsin:

Obama 44%
McCain 43%

McCain 50%
Clinton 38%

Also, see this one for New Mexico:

Obama 44%
McCain 44%

McCain 50%
Clinton 38%

Starting to sense a pattern here?



Whoah whoah! (legacyofmarshall - 2/24/2008 2:49:39 PM)
Sorry there fellas.

I'm obviously not as well-read in the op-ed field as you two, and don't know who's who.  I've just recently gotten into reading the New York Times (I've always been a Post person) and don't know who their in-house columnists are and who writes outside op-eds.

Forgive me for what appears to be the horrid sin of confusing an op-ed columnist with a Times journalist.



Character (aznew - 2/24/2008 1:26:33 PM)
Seriously, does the man have no character flaws? Can it not even be examined? I suspect that if Obama kicked a small child, you'd berate the little brat for dirtying the man's shoes.


Even if I knew what Obama's "character flaws" (Lowell - 2/24/2008 1:45:25 PM)
were -- doesn't floss regularly?  litters?  what? -- you're saying it's the job of Obama supporters to talk about them?  Also, given that Obama's very likely going to be the Democratic nominee, you think it's a good idea to start feeding the Republicans ammo?  Having said that, I honestly don't know what "character flaws" Obama has, aside from the normal ones all humans have.  Do you?


Well, I didn't know about the flossing thing (aznew - 2/24/2008 1:57:07 PM)
I might have to go for Nader now, should Obama get the nod. :)

I will now address each of your arguments, in turn:

1. I have said too many times now, but I will say it again: No, I do not think it is a good idea for Hillary Clinton do adopt right-wing talking points in criticizing Obama. It is counter-productive.

By the same token, I think it is equally wrong for Obama to do so -- and he clearly did so in this ersatz Harry and Louise mailer his campaign dropped.

2. I do not think it is the job of Obama supporters to discuss his character flaws, should he indeed have any. Disingenuousness in the pursuit of virtue is no vice.

3. As for Obama's flaws outside of the "normal" human ones -- what are they again, oh yeah, lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy and pride -- I'm sure he's clean.

I just think if we are going to discuss them with respect to Clinton, then we ought to discuss them with respect to Obama.  



Your grasping and trying to make things a character flaw that are not. n/t (KathyinBlacksburg - 2/24/2008 5:28:05 PM)


I'm just asking for honest discussion (aznew - 2/24/2008 5:44:15 PM)
Personally, I don't think Obama has character issues. I think these fliers were a mistake. We all make errors.


And guess which one Ohio will focus on? (Hugo Estrada - 2/24/2008 10:47:03 AM)
NAFTA, because NAFTA is what has made their lives a lot worse.


aznew: Your tired parsing of the word support (KathyinBlacksburg - 2/24/2008 5:17:26 PM)
is getting old.  And you have done gymnastics trying to contort your defense of Hillary.  


Or as Obama says (Lowell - 2/24/2008 7:22:48 AM)
"You can't pick and choose".


Or maybe it's all just "a vague memory?" Ha. (Lowell - 2/24/2008 7:25:02 AM)


A youtube video (Hugo Estrada - 2/24/2008 10:48:56 AM)
is worth a billion words... :)


She did say NAFTA was "important" for our country (KathyinBlacksburg - 2/24/2008 5:14:33 PM)
In Personal History.


factcheck.org (KathyinBlacksburg - 2/24/2008 5:10:44 PM)
is funded by the Annenberg Foundation, deriving from the fortune of wight-wing benefactor of Ronald Reagan, Walter Annenberg.  I wouldn't rely on it too heavily.  


Well, Kathy, factcheck was good enough for you, without qualification (aznew - 2/24/2008 5:24:56 PM)
when you used it to debunk Clinton's Rezco allegation against Obama:

http://www.raisingkaine.com/sh...



Not sure you want to take on Kathy (Lowell - 2/24/2008 5:34:13 PM)
given that she's easily one of the smartest people in the Virginia blogosphere. Anyway, good luck with this one, we'll see how it works out! :)


Thanks, I don't think of it that way (aznew - 2/24/2008 5:55:43 PM)
Among progressives, my interest is in discussing the issues and trying to educate myself through informed debate, not in being right.


Aznew must not have read his link (phillip123 - 2/23/2008 9:32:25 PM)
The link doesn't say anything about Barack's flier saying anything untruthful.  It just says that the flier failed to point out ways that the two plans are similar.  Hardly a lie.   Nobody said that Hillary said Nafta was a boon to the economy they stated that is what they concluded by looking at the evidence including things she did say.


That is not the case, Philip (aznew - 2/23/2008 9:45:54 PM)
I did follow the links.

On the Health Care flier, this is the infamous Harry and Louise flier that was debunked several weeks ago. The diary states:

Your (Clinton's) health care plan will in fact punish people who don't purchase health care.

That is just flat out false.

On the NAFTA flier, it clearly puts the word "boon" in quotes, suggesting that is what Hillary Clinton said. she did not. Newsday ( a newspaper on Long island) said it.  



So, the Clinton health care mandate (Lowell - 2/23/2008 9:50:09 PM)
has no penalties for people who fail to purchase health care?  Then how is it a mandate?  I'm confused.


My understanding of a mandate is (aznew - 2/23/2008 9:57:10 PM)
that people will have to purchase insurance, and there will be an enforcement mechanism. One suggestion has been a payroll deduction, but presumably there are other enforcement mechanisms.

I mean, you're not saying you're opposed to possibly using some form of payroll deductions to force everyone into the system, are you? After all, if you are philosophically opposed to that (as you have said you are based on the experience of a relative in Massachusetts), then I suppose you object, in principle, to Social Security also.



Garnish wages (Ingrid - 2/23/2008 11:01:19 PM)
Sen. Clinton used the words "garnish wages".  I was shocked when she first said that.  In Virginia, we "garnish" wages of delinquent taxpayers.  Sen. Obama's flyer was accurate.

For this "universal" thing to work, she would need the buy-in of Congress.  Good luck with that.



My understanding of what she said was (aznew - 2/24/2008 9:25:27 AM)
that it was one mechanism they would consider to enforce the universality mechanism.

As for the use of the word "garnish," in its classic sense, all it means is that you will collect the money from a third party (i.e. an employer or a bank) rather than seeking to collect the money from the person themselves.

The flier is lying, however, when it says everyone will have to buy insurance even if they can't afford it, and it will punish people who don't. This is patently and demonstrably false. The plan provides credits and other mechanisms to deal with the issue of financial burdens.

Maybe you think these will work, maybe you think they won't. But to assert that they are simply not there, as this mailer does, is in common parlance, a lie, designed to scare people.

I can't believe people who are progressives are defending this.



Tell it to my sister in law (Lowell - 2/24/2008 9:30:44 AM)
in Massachusetts.  She and her musician friends are mandated to buy health insurance but they can't afford it.  From what I understand, they're now in jeopardy of having their wages garnished or being fined or something.  Well, won't that just be great: they'll be poorer AND still not be able to afford health insurance.  Wonderful system.


The overall point is that we all share the goal (Lowell - 2/24/2008 9:32:27 AM)
of everyone having access to affordable, high quality health care. The differences are in the details of how exactly to get there.


Sure, we all agree on that (aznew - 2/24/2008 9:40:24 AM)
But Obama's adopting the false scare-tactic, Right-wing talking points that he does in this mailer does not help get us there.


Hahahahahahahahahahaha (Lowell - 2/24/2008 9:45:28 AM)

"Clinton heightens terrorism rhetoric."

Comment #1: "Wow, that is a scare-mongering tactic right out of the Republican playbook. Clinton must be terrified of Obama right now."

Comment #5: "The last time I heard that line it was coming out of the mouths of Bush and Cheney in `04 versus Kerry. Yuck."



Effective video (aznew - 2/24/2008 9:59:28 AM)
but here is where you and I part company.

Clinton is my admittedly imperfect choice for president.

I have no qualms about stating flat out that her rhetoric suggesting that Obama is not ready to be CiC is also a scare-tactic, right-wing talking point that she ought not to be using, and I wish she would stop.

I criticize the Clinton campaign and Clinton herself plenty.

But Rarack Obama, it seems, is without flaw.



That's absurd. (Lowell - 2/24/2008 11:02:53 AM)
Why do you think I hesitated in making an endorsement through the spring, summer and fall?  Why do you think I was leaning towards Hillary that whole time?  Why do you think I want someone like Jim Webb or Wes Clark as Barack Obama's running mate?  Do you think I haven't fully considered each candidate's strengths and flaws?  Well, yes, I have, and I think I've made those very clear over the past 12 months.  Obama is lacking in foreign policy/national security/military experience, but I believe he can make up for that by picking a strong running mate and cabinet officials.  Plus, he's a very fast study, so I'm not terribly concerned.  Still, that's a "flaw" if you will.  Also, I still think Obama could use more "meat" on his soaring "audacity of hope" rhetoric.  Again, I'm not terribly worried, in the sense that I believe you can always add policy wonk details, but if you lack the ability to communicate and inspire, you'll never get it.


Yes, you have mentioned her before (aznew - 2/24/2008 9:38:24 AM)
and I believe I even referenced her in an earlier post.

There are three obvious responses. The first is, not knowing her specific situation, perhaps she ought to be fined. Perhaps she doesn't need as nice  a place as she has. Perhaps your brother-in-law is planning on catching the Red Sox this season in high-def.

I don't know them, and I'm not suggesting anything beyond once you use their  personal situation as a basis for your argument, lets get all the facts out then so we can make an informed judgment.

The second is that taking an individual situation is no way to make policy. Out of millions and millions, there will always be some specific situations that require special treatment. Perhaps this is one of those cases.

The third response is I hope your sister-in-law and her husband don't get sick. Because if they do -- if they, get in a car accident or need to go to the hospital, well, that's going to get expensive. So, rather than control those costs upfront in a orderly and less expensive manner, what's the worry? Taxpayers will pick up the tab for them anyway.



First of all, my sister-in-law is not married (Lowell - 2/24/2008 9:41:45 AM)
I'm not sure why you assumed that...kind of odd.

Besides that, it's very simple: she and her musician friends struggle to make ends meet, don't live extravagantly at all (a small apartment, a car that's about to die, etc.).  They simply can't afford much, let alone an expensive health care premium.  That's why I agree with Obama that the top priority is making high quality health care accessible and affordable to any adult who wants and needs it.  Mandates are tricky and unwieldy, though, as the Massachusetts example demonstrates.  



I thought I saw you mention a husband somewhere in there (aznew - 2/24/2008 9:51:44 AM)
that's all. Just an error. Nothing odd.

I really didn't mean to make her life or the lives of her friends an issue. The fact is that under Clinton's plan, if you can't afford the insurance, you will be provided with a credit of subsidy that makes it affordable. No one is forced to purchase something they can't afford.



If a mandate will take money from our pocket (KathyinBlacksburg - 2/24/2008 5:23:13 PM)
or paycheck (as in a mandate)and there are either no or insufficient price containments, then that amounts to a "wealth" (such as it is) transfer from my paycheck or bank account to that of the insurance executives.  That is a takings.  And that is unacceptable.  


Well, as a Constitutional matter, I don't think it would be a "taking" (aznew - 2/24/2008 5:48:00 PM)
but I'm no expert in that area of the law.

In any event, I get the point you're trying to make. So, as a matter of principle, you must oppose Obama's health plan also, since it includes mandates as well?



How do you enforce the mandate? (phillip123 - 2/24/2008 12:06:19 AM)
We all know that Barack Obama doesn't support a mandate for Health care and that Hillary does.  What is the point of having everyone must buy health care if there is no enforcement.  How effective would speed limits be if people weren't punished for speeding.  Of course she will punish people who don't follow her mandate.


A mandate does not work exactly the same as a law (aznew - 2/24/2008 9:47:13 AM)
so fines for speeding are not really relevant.

A more apt analogy to universal health care would be social security. The social security tax is, in effect, a garnishment of wages. Should folks be able to opt out of that?



This is just semantics. (spotter - 2/24/2008 2:22:06 PM)
In her own words, Hillary Clinton called NAFTA a "victory" and a "success."  Those are stronger words than "boon."  She may not have used those precise words (Newsday DID), but they weren't fabricated.  Once again, these false complaints are more revealing of Hillary Clinton's shameless character than anything.

I don't blame her from wanting to distance herself from NAFTA, which could lose her Ohio, but by her desperate complaints she's just drawing attention to the truth: she supported NAFTA.

Also, Hillary Clinton has been quite clear that there will be an enforcement mechanism on her universal health care plan.  Although she's a bit mysterious as to exactly what that will be, wage withholding was clearly mentioned as a possibility.  If she has some other enforcement mechanism in mind, why hasn't she bothered to tell us what it is?



just semantics (KathyinBlacksburg - 2/24/2008 5:24:12 PM)
like parsing the meaning of "is."  Triangulation has run into a concrete barrier.


Just semantics? (aznew - 2/24/2008 5:34:14 PM)
"Don't tell me words don't matter!" -- Barack Obama


Yeh, let's make it personal, aznew. Not! (KathyinBlacksburg - 2/24/2008 5:35:14 PM)


How on Earth does that make it personal? (aznew - 2/24/2008 5:37:20 PM)
Am I the one who called your arguments tired (leaving aside the question of whether they are or not)?

Sorry, but I don't make it personal or use insults.

You can dish it out, but you can't take it, methinks.



Meanwhile, did you see (Lowell - 2/24/2008 5:38:15 PM)
this?


This is a perfect illustration of the Clinton Rules in operation (aznew - 2/24/2008 6:35:10 PM)
The Newsday piece is an interesting story and certainly a worthwhile read, but not for the reason that Smith notes. It paints a portrait of Clinton as driven and committed to winning.

Now, you wouldn't know it from Smith's description of the story, but if you click through to Thrush's article, and read all the way to the 20th graf, you come upon this:

Rodham, legal and child welfare experts say, did nothing unethical by attacking the child's credibility - although they consider her defense of Taylor to be aggressive.

"She was vigorously advocating for her client. What she did was appropriate," said Andrew Schepard, director of Hofstra Law School's Center for Children, Families and the Law. "He was lucky to have her as a lawyer ... In terms of what's good for the little girl? It would have been hell on the victim. But that wasn't Hillary's problem."

Smith, on the other hand, does not state that independent observers say Clinton did nothing wrong -- he attributes her defense solely to her aides. I'd say this is a significant difference, since, of course, her aides would be expected to defend her regardless.

The other thing I'll note is that this was an indigent defendant -- the same kind of defendant who is often wrongly convicted because too many court-appointed attorneys don't advocate effectively for their client.

I don't want to defend a rapist -- this defendant eventually cut a deal and was never convicted for this crime. As progressives, we should applaud Clinton for her efforts on behalf of this guy, as disgusting as that sounds.

If more public defenders were as aggressive and conscientious as Hillary Clinton was, perhaps we'd have fewer innocent people on death row these days. I certainly wouldn't have the stomach for it, but it is a net positive given our justice system that there are people who do.



Actaully, I referred to an article from elsewhere imbedded at that site (KathyinBlacksburg - 2/24/2008 5:34:16 PM)
I read an article from a Chicago newpaper, (Tribune, I believe)posted within factcheck.org.  I never use factcheck.org alone.  And the link I gave included that article.  Because there is a real slant to what they chose to correct.  There is also a difference in degree as to what they critique against Dems vs. Republicans.  I will say that one individual, Kathleen Jamison did guest on Bill Moyers and thoroughly fackchecked the SOTU and did a good job.  But just going to this site for everything is a mistake.  You have to do your homework thoroughly.  Have you read BTW Personal History.


My apologies (aznew - 2/24/2008 5:41:41 PM)
When you wrote "You may want to go to Factcheck.org and see what they say," and absolutely nothing else, I erroneously thought "they" referred to Factcheck.


Naah -- not flipping out (Quizzical - 2/23/2008 10:25:40 PM)
I saw Hillary on the news today -- saw the soundbites.  This isn't a last ditch effort to save her candidacy.  I think she has all but given up, based on her statements in the most recent debate. Obviously, I think she is angry about the direction in which Obama is pushing the health care debate  --  with an energy and direction which in her view is probably unnecessary at this point for him to win the nomination.  Is it so hard to believe that she believes deeply in universal heath care?

Let me do my George Will imitation.  People have been saying that Hillary Clinton's campaign is sleazy and ruthless and morally bankrupt.  Well.  Wait until she is on the sidelines soon, and you will see the real thing.      



Has anyone done research? (Rebecca - 2/23/2008 10:59:14 PM)
Why doesn't someone research how other countries handle universal health care? I strongly suspect that the government covers the cost which is covered with income tax, sales tax, or some other tax. This means people don't have to buy it. I just think there is something fishy about Clinton's health care plan. I suspect that her plan is not what most countries would call universal health care.


Europe (Ingrid - 2/23/2008 11:07:29 PM)
In some European countries, you pay for government sponsored healthcare like you pay for Social Security and Medicare in the U.S.  So, it's like Medicare but bigger: it covers everyone from birth to death.  In some cases, you wait a long time to get the care you need, because the system is overwhelmed.


You mean (KathyinBlacksburg - 2/24/2008 5:39:03 PM)
like waiting four months just to see a gastroenterologist.  That's the wait I have to live with here.


Many types of universal health care (Rebecca - 2/23/2008 11:17:06 PM)
Check this link for a lot of information on universal health care. Especially check out Germany (down the page) which has had universal health care since 1883!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U...

It seems that many universal health care systems also have options for people to purchase their own health care. And some systems are NOT mandatory like Hillary Clinton's. So if anyone is being deceptive about the issue of universal health care I would say it is Hillary since she is claiming that Obama's plan is not universal because people can opt out. It seems that some systems which are called universal offer that option.



Exactly which universal systems are not mandatory or (aznew - 2/24/2008 10:03:46 AM)
single payer systems?

A health care system that does not cover everyone is not universal.

This insistence that Obama's plan is universal is Orwellian.



Obama's plan provides universal (Lowell - 2/24/2008 11:03:55 AM)
ACCESS to health care.  Hillary's plan mandates that everyone have coverage, not sure what the penalties are if people don't cooperate.


And Obama sponsored an Illinois Cont. amendment (KathyinBlacksburg - 2/24/2008 5:58:26 PM)
making health care a human right.  This is a sign of the direction he would likely take us.  

Hillary, on the other hand, has the most health care dollars behind her of any candidate of either party.  And when that's the case, it will be the so-called person-hood of corporations and their right to take advantage of us which will prevail.



Obama's plan provides universal (Lowell - 2/24/2008 11:03:55 AM)
ACCESS to health care.  Hillary's plan mandates that everyone have coverage, not sure what the penalties are if people don't cooperate.


And price containments... (KathyinBlacksburg - 2/24/2008 6:41:04 PM)
I'd like aznew to try to explain how we can expect reform from the candidate who has the Health care industry behind her.  


I'm not quite sure what you mean "behind her," but according to the NY Times (aznew - 2/24/2008 7:05:31 PM)
In the first nine months of 2007, Hillary Clinton received $2.7 million from the health care industry.

Barack Obama received $2.2 million.

Just for context, Romney had received only $1.6 million by then.

So, no one is pure. So, if you are arguing that money corrupts, per se, then aren't both Clinton and Obama corrupted?

Link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10...



Hillary didn't flip out against Walmart (phillip123 - 2/24/2008 12:09:09 AM)
If you want to read about it click:

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/...

If you want to watch it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...