Are you planning to watch the Democratic debate tonight? It's at 8 PM eastern time on CNN, sponsored by the Congressional Black Caucus Institute and moderated by Wolf Blitzer. With all the heated rhetoric the past few days, this should definitely be interesting! Please use this as an open thread...
P.S. The debate's being held in Myrtle Beach, SC.
UPDATE 9:13 PM: This thing has been pretty rough -- even nasty -- so far. Thank goodness for the break. I can't imagine how this can get any rougher than it's been so far. Hillary definitely on the offensive tonight, Obama definitely on the defensive, seems like a tag team at times of Edwards and Hillary against Obama.
UPDATE 10:14 PM: Hillary Clinton was VERY aggressive tonight, the question is whether or not this will help her or backfire. I think Democrats like that she will be a "fighter" against Republicans, not sure when it comes to fellow Democrats.
UPDATE 10:18 PM: I agree with Josh Marshall at TPM:
I find myself refinding my positive feelings for Hillary, my gut level support, when she talks about herself as a fighter, about her never giving up, being there today and tomorrow. And then she launches into these attacks and she starts to lose me.
I also agree with this:
Just when I'm seeing Hillary's side of things, she comes back with crap like this 'present' stuff. Anybody who's looked into this knows the whole 'present' thing is garbage. It's a standard thing in the Illinois legislature. Here's the NYTimes fairly critical article on the 'present' issue, which nonetheless gets at the nub of the issue that in almost every case this is a standard part of legislative procedure in Illinois.
And this as well:
It's hard for me to think of much good from this debate. If you view debates like a boxing match, I guess it was lively and perhaps entertaining, in the sense that a good boxing match can be, though the fighting was more intense than well executed. But that's only if you have no investment in the outcome. If you're watching this with a mind to wanting one of these three to be president in 2009, as I do, it wasn't a great thing to watch.
P.S. All in all, I'd probably say John Edwards "won" this debate-from-hell. The question is whether it's too little too late for his campaign. We'll see in SC on Saturday.
Obama: King's march on Washington was for jobs as well as justice. Bush has made economy worse, skewed tax code to wealthy, squandered billions in a war that never should have been authorized. We haven't made investments in school system, children can't compete in international economy. Need a stimulus. Sen. Clinton has recently caught up to what I had said. Money into pockets of hard working Americans right away, not just to wealthy but to folks who only pay payroll not income tax. Supplement to social security checks for seniors.
Edwards: No tax rebate. Proud to be here tonight. Central to King's work...fighting to end poverty in America. Chasm between rich and poor in America is wide and getting worse. Rich getting richer, poor getting poorer. Bush leaves 50 million Americans out of stimulus package. If we're going to deal with poverty, have to include all Americans in stimulus plan. Stimulate economy AND create long-term benefits -- investment in green infrastructure. Do something about mortgage crisis. Issue of jobs -- they both supported Peru trade deal, SC has been devastated by free trade deals. Green the economy, modernize employment insurance laws, help the states, deal with mortgage crisis -- all those things will stimulate economy.
Obama: Green jobs idea is important, that's why it's central to my energy plan. That's long term, we have an immediate crisis, possible extraordinary recession. On trade...you see the textile mills...true that NAFTA was a mistake...Hillary said it was a boon to the economy, I think it has been devestating because trade agreements didn't have worker or environmental standards. Peru trade agreement DID have worker and enviro. standards. John, you voted for permanent trade relations with China.
Clinton: Do it through spending, don't open up tax codes while we have Republicans in Senate who want to make Bush tax cuts permanent. Crisis has gotten too deep to wait. President should convene working group on financial markets. President's proposed stimulus package is too little too late. Green collar jobs are important. Move towards green economy, give people jobs. Look at this from jobs and justice, stimulation and long-term planning effort. Hold the line against Pres. Bush on this.
Edwards: Green collar jobs proposal will create jobs within 30 or so days, immediate impact on economy. Noone has to explain to me what trade deals have done to SC. The problem with Peru, Barack, is you are leaving enforcement of enviro. and labor provisions to George Bush. I wouldn't trust George Bush...
Obama: In a year's time it will be ME who's enforcing. Joh, you tell an extraordinarily powerful story. I first moved to Chicago as community organizer dealing with devastation to steel mills, people who lost their jobs. I know what it's like. Critical for us to understand that NAFTA was enormous problem. Permanent trade relations with China that you voted for also a significant problem.
Answer: everyone who needs a new mortgage in the next five years. And, for all of us with 30-year fixed rates, just one word: suckers!
Clinton: I couldn't agree more. Your record and what you say does matter. It is sometimes difficult to understand what Sen. Obama has said. He always says, that's not what I said. Republicans had bad ideas for America. You have a lot of money to put into foreign aid, no evidence how you would pay for it. I think elections are about the future. You have to look to peoples' records, what they've done in their careers. We are not in any way saying that Obama didn't oppose war in Iraq. That was NOT what the point of our criticism. It is that after that speech, by the next year it was off your website, by next year agreeing with Bush, by next year voting to fund war...distinction between words and action.
Obama: Hillary, I will be happy to provide you with the information. You just said I complimented Republican ideas, that's not true. I said Reagan was transformative because he got Dem's to vote against their own interests. While I was fighting Reagan's policies, you were a corporate lawyer sitting on board of WalMart. We've got to appeal to independents and Republicans to build a working majority. You praised Ronald Reagan in a book being published right now. So did Bill Clinton. Political games.
Clinton: We're just getting warmed up. I just want to be clear about this. You said two different things...talked about Reagan being transformative political leader, I didn't mention his name. I think we both have passionate and committed spouses who stand up for us. You talk about Republicans having ideas [Obama: I didn't say they were good ones]. Yes, they did have ideas, and they were bad ideas. I was fighting those when you were practicing law and representing Rezko in slum landlord business in Chicago.
Edwards: There are three people in this debate, not two. This kind of squabbling, how many children will get health care because of this, how many kids will go to college. This is NOT about us personally, this is about what we're trying to do for this country. Fiscal responsibility, which I think was the question. I have proposed most aggressive, progressive agenda. First to come out with global warming plan, health care, plan to end poverty, way to pay for it. Not abstract, not rhetoric, very explicit. Both Sen. Obama and I said Soc. Sec. needs a solution. She has proposed nothing about how to keep Soc. Security alive. More money going out than coming in, you'll eventually run out of money. Let me finish, Lord knows you let them go on forever. We have to be consistent in what we're saying. Have to do something about cap on Soc. Sec. taxes. That's not right...American people deserve to know where we stand.
BUT - the headlines tomorrow won't be the arguments that Edwards made, or even the arguments that Clinton and Obama made. The headlines will be about this squabble.
And Edwards will probably get a good 15 seconds of coverage while the other two get hours.
The others are knee deep. And it ain't mud.
Clinton: My plan helps mitigate the agony. Take action now. I've been calling for action since last March. Mortgage crisis destroying dreams of homeownership and having a ripple effect across the world. Not a bailout. Interest rate freeze is merited. Homeowners left holding the bag.
Obama: We need to help people, not the speculators. This is not new. We have a history in this country of preying on low-income people. We've got to give people access to financing so they're not going to payday loan operation. Eliminate predatory lending. Give ordinary working people access to financing. Banks and financial institutions have dominated policy in Washington. I disagree with Sen. Clinton. Bankruptcy bill had been pushed by banks...made it harder for folks getting out of bankruptcy. Clinton voted for it but hoped it wouldn't pass. I don't understand that approach. It's important for us to stand up to special interests consistently.
Slum lord allegation -- I did about 5 hours worth of work on a joint project. We do have to trust our leaders and what they say, that is important. If not, we can't mobilize American people. Consistency matters, truthfulness during campaigns...
Clinton: I regretted voting for bankruptcy bill. Opposed next bankruptcy bill. Obama voted for amendment on interest rates...he did the bidding of insurance companies. If we're going to be hurling charges against one another, I'm used to taking incoming fire. You can't expect to have hands off attitude about your record. I voted to limit to 30% what credit cards could charge, Obama voted against it.
Obama: I thought 30% was too high. There had been no discussion about how to structure this.
Clinton: You voted with credit card companies.
Obama: I voted against that bill. You have to have consistently in how we vote.
Clinton: Sen. Obama, it is very difficult having straight up debate with you, you never take responsibility for any vote. Obama voted "present" on important issues in Illinois Senate. Voted "present" time and time again. Everytime someone raises that, there's always an explanation. Very difficult to get an explanation.
Obama: I had sponsored bill on sexual abuse, it go through the Senate. Nobody has worked harder than me in Illinois state legislature on the issue of sexual abuse. There was a legal provision that was problematic. You comb my 4,000 votes, choose one, try to present it in worse way. It's important that people aren't willing to just say anything to get elected. I don't enjoy spending the last month having to answer to these kind of criticisms which are not accurate.
Clinton: That law's still on the books, never been struck down.
Edwards: It's important whether you're willing to take hard positions. I didn't hear an explanation why over 100 times you voted present.
Obama: Because in Illinois oftentimes you vote present in order to indicate you had problems with bill that otherwise you would have voted for.
Edwards: You criticized us for one vote or the other vote, what's fair is fair. What if I had just not shown up to vote on things that mattered to this country.
Obama: Most of these were technical problems with pieces of legislation that got modified. I took lead on things that were not smart politically, but because they were the right thing to do. Illinois has different system than Congress. I have led, not simply followed.
She's really been revealed for what she is: someone who will say ANYTHING to get elected.
All of the good points that each candidate made at one point or another will be lost in all of this. That is a total shame.
Health Care - I like Obama's plan. Mandates don't work in car insurance, why would they work in health care?
I would love to see them debate this issue completely, instead of bicker.
This is good, canny politics. By sticking a different label on what is functionally universal healthcare, Obama makes it possible for that crucial handful of Republicans to cross over and support it.
Obama: Plan does not cover 12 million illegal immigrants. We have limited resources. We have obligation to make sure children are covered. Critical issue is how are we actually going to get it done. I respect that Sen. Clinton attempted to get health care reform done. They did it in wrong way, behind closed doors, didn't enlist American people in the process. Have to have negotiations in public setting.
Edwards: None of our three plans cover 12 million illegal immigrants. Strengthen safety net. Need comprehensive immigration plan, chance to become American citizens and become part of plan. Importance of us being honest during campaign. Three health care plans, two are universal, Obama's is not. Have to mandate coverage for everyone. Important to recognize that Obama has taken more money from drug companies, Clinton from insurance comapanies.
Obama: I don't take PAC money, money from lobbyists. I've raised a lot of money, but that doesn't mean I've gotten a bunch of money from drug lobbyists. Hillary and John want to mandate coverage for all adults. You're forced to buy health insurance. May mean taking money out of peoples' paychecks. Sen. Clinton not clear. I believe people aren't trying to avoid getting health insurance, they can't afford it. Not a single person out there who wants health care who won't get it under my plan. Both you and Hillary have hardship exemption, so you don't cover them.
Edwards: The problem with this argument is you can make exact same argument about Social Security. The argument is you shouldn't HAVE to have health care. I believe there is not a single man, woman or child in American not worthy of health care.
Clinton: If you don't start out trying to get universal health care, you'll never get there. It is imperative to have plans, as John and I do, that every single person is covered. Employers and individual responsibility. Core Democratic principle, I'm willing to go to the mat for it. I'm not giving in or giving up. Evolution by Sen. Obama. He's changed his position...his policy is not universal. All those present votes were taking a pass. I am not running for President to put band-aids on our problems.
Obama: If we are not making it affordable and you mandate it....folks have to pay fines. My core belief is that people desperately want coverage. To suggest that I'm not interested in having everybody covered...
This whole debate exchange is only making the candidates --I have to say except Edwards -- sound like a bad comedy routine. Damn good thing for us that the Republicans are making our candidates look good by comparison. But that's a poor way to win the White House.
I'm going to have a nightcap shot of good Jamison Irish and hope when I wake up in the morning this will all be behind us.
Back to the real objective: Take back our country from the Cheney/Bush imperialist dictatorship.
T.C.
How is a fine going to make people buy insurance they cannot afford? I have never understood that
btw - I think there is a real issue of undocumented aliens not having insurance, and that it creates two problems
1) a public health risk because they don't regularly get medical treatment
2) an increase in cost when they go to hospital emergency rooms (at least at public hospitals) where they cannot be rejected
I would like to see more woak-in emergency treatment centers, where the cost would be much lower than an emergency room - that might solve some of the problems.
At the risk of committing RK heresy, here is Mitt Romney explaining the Massachusetts health care plan back in 2006. (Hey it was a bipartisan effort there.)
http://policycouncil.nationalj...
The fine is supposed to make people buy the insurance, at subsidized rates depending on income level, when they can indeed afford it.
And then we have something called the personal responsibility principle. And that is given the fact we put in place a program that has Medicaid for the very poor, premium assistance for the working poor, and now for the first time affordable insurance products for those with middle incomes, everybody has access to health insurance they can afford. In that environment and only in that environment people who remain uninsured would be unnecessarily and unfairly passing their healthcare costs on to everybody else. And so we adopted the personal responsibility principle that means that everybody should have insurance or have the means to pay for their own healthcare. One or the other: you've either got enough money to pay for your own healthcare cost or you buy insurance.How do we enforce that? Well, pretty simple: we give people through July of next year, in July when they file their taxes or the next time they file their taxes they put on their tax form what their health insurance company is and the policy number. That's checked against our database. If they indeed have insurance, that's great. If they don't, we charge them $100 a month. So we're basically putting in place a pretty significant carrot and stick. Get insurance or we in effect will be charging you $100 a month for not having it. We want to get everybody inside the system to buy a policy they can afford.
But if we're looking at something close the the Massachusetts model, then yes that's exactly what would happen.
In the case of Clinton and Edwards, I believe they do provide a subsidy for some families, but fundamentally, I think Obama's reasoning is the one that makes the most sense.
The issue isn't that people don't want heath care insurance, it's that they can't afford the costs of skyrocketing premiums. If you're able to lower the cost of insurance, then you will make it more available to a larger number of people (e.g. by having a system where the government assumes the costs for catastrophic cases, so that healthier Americans don't have those costs factored into their insurance rates.)
Under the Clinton and Edwards plans we are still directly subsidizing the costs of catastrophic cases, which account for the largest share of premiums (e.g. if someone is paying $2,000 a month, but is getting $5,000 worth of medical treatment every month, the insurance companies offset the cost of those clients by increasing everyone else's premiums).
Under Obama's plan the catastrophic cases are picked up directly by the government, which lowers the cost of premiums for everyone across the board. With the lower cost premiums you are going to find a price point where uninsured people are able to afford insurance, which enlarges the pool of people sharing risk, which in turn decreases the cost of premiums, which in turn makes premiums even more affordable.
All of these candidates seem to be driving towards a single-payer system, but the Obama approach is one where I think we'll get there a lot faster. As he said, even in the mandated Massachusetts system 20% of the uninsured still aren't covered http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...
What would you define as winning?
Relawson hits the nail on the head with the media blackout of Edwards. The headlines are already written...
Watch now: Hillary will be even worse during this next round when there are "no rules." She'll shout Obama down at every chance.
Edwards: McCain is wrong because Bush himself said the surge's goal was to create room for political solution. There has been no meaningful political progress. All of us have said we'd end the war. How aggressively and how quickly is an important question. Within first year, I'll have all combat troops out of Iraq, no permanent military bases in Iraq, haven't heard either of them say that.
Obama: What I've said repeatedly is I want to be as careful getting out as we were careless getting out. Want to get combat troops out. Understand what's at stake here. Create stable Iraqi government where our troops are not required to maintain permanent bases in Iraq. Money spent in Iraq is not being spent here. Loss of life AND financially unsustainable. Could have rebuilt every road, bridge, hospital in America. We are seeing Al Qaeda stronger now than at any time since 2001...significant threat that has to be dealt with...because we've been distracted. How do we deal with future threats?
Clinton: I will move as quickly as possible to get all combat troops out within a year. Problem looming on horizon...Bush intent on negotiating long-term agreement with Iraq, doesn't even need to go to Congress. Try to bind his successor to his failed policy. I have been strongly opposed to that. We've got to rein in President Bush. We need legislation in a hurry which says "no, President Bush, you can't bind U.S. government without coming to Congress."
2) Obama is in a difficult place - he has to respond or he seems weak, but it does bring him down from being a different kind of candidate. I remarked to my wife that at some point he should simply say that what Clinton was throwing out there was typical say anything to get elected politics. The American people deserve better. Therefore he was going ignore most of her less than factual charges and talk about the issues Americans cared about. he has touched on this, but not said it forcefully enough.
3) Edwards sees an opening. He has bee able to score points against both of the others. But there are a couple fo times when he seems not to know when to draw the line - he keeps saying "this is the cause of my life" and by the third time it is annoying.
I think Edwards has done enough to justify people continuing to support him, and my guess is that more of his support will come from Clinton than from Obama
Clinton has shown the best mastery of detail, but has not been as effective connecting with the people in the room as the other two, based on audience response.
The format for the first part was not favorable for Obama - although his wit and humor come through occasionally, being at a podium does not work as well for him. I felt the steup for the last debate worked better for him, and it will be interesting to see if their being seated makes a difference in the remaining 45 minutes.
Please remember - I have not yet chosen a candidate, and am observing as a neutral observer waiting to be convinced.
Clinton, Obama come out swinging in debate
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITI...
MYRTLE BEACH, South Carolina (CNN) -- Monday night's Democratic debate quickly turned into a back-and-forth between rivals Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama.Sen. Hillary Clinton and Sen. Barack Obama started arguing almost as soon as the debate began.
1 of 2 The two Democratic front-runners took shots at each others' economic plans and criticized the accuracy of recent accusations the two campaigns have traded.
Here is the AP
Clinton, Obama clash at debate
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...MYRTLE BEACH, S.C. - A simmering feud between Democrats Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama erupted into charges of distortion and exaggeration in a gloves-off president debate Monday, with Clinton accusing him of representing a Chicago slumlord and Obama countering that she was a corporate lawyer for anti-union Wal-Mart.
Even in the superheated atmosphere of their fight for the party's nomination, the statements and exchanges between Clinton and Obama were unusually acrimonious and personal.
sorry for the tease, but I felt I should at least share that much
I will say this much
I came into tonight willing to consider all three. I no longer am. One is out. And while of the other two, one is now clearly ahead, the deal is not yet sealed.
Clinton: Graduated from law school, went to work for Children's Defense Fund. Ending poverty central cause of last 35 years. A mission. Infuses everything I do, why I'm in public service. Standing up for health care, education for poor kids. Reality check. Last 7 years, African American families have lost income, compared to 1990s when it went up. Make sure economy works for everybody. Good jobs with good benefits. Make it a mission from day #1 to have shared prosperity.
Obama: I think John has run a terrific campaign, but I have to say, I've put forward comprehensive poverty plan. I'll be happy to share it with you. It's not just talking about it during a campaign. What I did as state legislator, attorney...make clear that lifetime commitment is how people will have to measure these issues. Media very focused on race. I am convinced that white, black, Latino, Asian...people want to move beyond our divisions, join together to create movement for change in this country. "An African American, a woman, and...John." Start to get something done in this country. Republicans haven't done this. Policies they've promoted have not provided ladders for upward mobility. This shouldn't split on racial lines.
Edwards: Involved with urban ministries in North Carolina. Fight with Bill O'Reilly on 200,000 veterans who are homeless. All the work I've done...worry about poverty starts to sound like a statistic. Woman who worked full time, every night in winter couldn't pay both heating bill and rent. Had to choose. We are better than that.
Remember, if we can ever forge an alliance between the urban African Americans and the rural working white, we can forge an alliance to govern the United States.
In fairness, he did play the sax and was into jazz.
Chris Rock: All I know is that I don't want the pilot's wife flying the plane.
Clinton: I'm sure that can be arranged. This campaign is an incredible opportunity for so many people to become involved, make history. What better way to celebrate legacy of MLK than to look at this stage tonight. Inherit a huge amount of damage from President Bush. We are passionate about our cause, what we believe, what we want to do for America. Stay focused on future, what we're going to do together. Set big goals again, start acting like Americans.
Obama: Appreciate that Hillary and John were giving me a hard time because I'm doing well. We shouldn't ignore real problems of race in America. Criminal justice system - for same crime, black and whites arrested at different rates, receive different sentences, etc. I would have civil rights division working with local law enforcement to make sure laws enforced fairly. Not just a special interest of African American community...
Clinton: Challenge is to address all of these issues. Problems of gender equality. Big agenda waiting for Democratic Party. We each in our own way have lived it. Seen injustice because of race, gender. Don't hear Republicans talking about ANY of this. Don't hear any kind of effort to help historically black colleges.
Edwards: Grew up in SC, Georgia and NC. Lived in segregated south in early years. Saw up close impact it had. Blood sweat and tears to bring about change. Things we don't talk about. Father raised me to believe people who worked in the mill with him were worth as much as person who owned the mill. America shocked to see pictures out of 9th ward of New Orleans. We need to create opportunity for people...improve all of our neighborhoods.
We are desegrated roughly 8 hours out of the day. That leaves 16 hours of segregation.
Of course, I can't remember the last time I spoke with my neighbors. This isn't the America I remember as a child when everyone knew everybody else in the neighborhood. Sad really.
This is about making sure Hillary is not the nominee.
:)
Obama: Hillary's right, we have effective advocates in our spouses. I would expect Bill Clinton to campaign vigorously on your behalf. Troubled at the degree to which my record not accurately portrayed. How important it is to redraw political map in this country. We as Democrats have not had a working majority in a very long time to push through bold initiatives. I believe I can inspire new people to get involved in process. Bush and Cheney -- one good thing they've done for us is given their party a really bad name. Expand scope of electorate. We've seen record turnout so far. We've inspired people who haven't voted before.
Edwards: People not just voting in a primary. Voting on who our candidate will be next November. Increasingly likely John McCain will be Republican candidate. Who can compete against John McCain across America. When I'm nominee, I'll be back in South Carolina, North Carolina, Georgia, Missouri. Cant' concede those places. Are we competitive in rural areas, tougher areas for Dem's to compete. Nothing to do with race or gender. Being able to go everywhere in America to campaign and compete. I'm the one who beats John McCain everywhere in America. Electability is not the only consideration...I can go anywhere in America, compete against John McCain and win.
This line is constantly repeated that Senator Clinton's campaign is driven primarily by lobbyist, corporate and PAC money. Find a FEC filing and prove it. I have on several occasions demonstrated this point and no one has yet to refute it. You want to make this claim, please demonstrate it. Please compare and contrast in a meaningful way the donations that Senator Clinton has received to what Senator Obama has received.
Penn, who had previously worked in the business world for companies like Texaco and Eli Lilly, brought his corporate ideology to the White House. After moving to Washington he aggressively expanded his polling firm, Penn, Schoen & Berland (PSB). It was said that Penn was the only person who could get Bill Clinton and Bill Gates on the same line. Penn's largest client was Microsoft, and he saw no contradiction between working for both the plaintiff and the defense in what was at the time the country's largest antitrust case. A variety of controversial clients enlisted PSB. The firm defended Procter & Gamble's Olestra from charges that the food additive caused anal leakage, blamed Texaco's bankruptcy on greedy jurors and market-tested genetically modified foods for Monsanto. PSB introduced to consulting the concept of "inoculation": shielding corporations from scandal through clever advertising and marketing.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/2...
In terms of PAC money Hillary has raised a little over $300,000 so far from these sources . . .
http://opensecrets.org/pres08/...
The big x-factor here is who her campaign bundlers are (e.g. people like Bush's "Ranchers" or "Pioneers"). These people pool donations from individual donors in order to give these donors a greater voice inside a political operation. E.g. Norman Hsu, the indicted former Clinton donor, had bundled over a million dollars worth of donations for the Clinton campaign (the max limit for an individual is $2,300 for a primary, and $2,300 for the general election).
I don't know the ins and outs of all of Clinton's bundlers; however, she has pledged to release information on bundlers who pull in $100,000 or more for her campaign. Obama's disclosure threshold is $50,000. Edwards' disclosure threshold is $25,000. Both Edwards and Obama agreed to disclose this information early, Clinton was the last out of the bunch and only did so after some pressure was applied to her campaign.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/hom...
This is a good website on all candidates. It would be helpful if they actually disaggregated bundles from total contributions, because not all of the contributions under a candidate's name come from bundlers. It would also be ideal if they did an apples to apples comparison of bundlers at various thresholds (e.g. Obama has more bundlers in this comparison than Clinton, but this is due in part to the fact that Obama's total numbers include $50,000 bundlers +; whereas Clinton's numbers only include people who have bundled $100,000 or more -- in other words, her numbers would be substantially higher than anyone if you also included her $50,000 bundlers).
I don't know about you, but I hope if Senator Obama wins our nomination that all of those bundlers for Senator Clinton go over and help Senator Obama. With enough money we can bury the Republicans and maybe take a few of their reps and Senators out in the process.
"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain..."
Freakin' Hillary is a careerist politician .... and right now she's badgering John Edwards and tar papering both Barrack and John. She's actually lecturing on lobbying..... unf9&^Lcking believable.
She's painted everyone else's position to say like it's her's. What a mess.... this is Desperate. Out with the Clintonistas in with the Grassroots. Give me OBAMA.
Hillary: Lots of polls showing that I'm doing better than anyone else. If Sen. McCain is the Republican nominee, this will be a general election on national security. I'm better positioned than anyone else to take on McCain on national security. They've been after there for 16 years, and much to their dismay I'm still here.
Edwards: I don't think it's about polls, but about fundamental differences between us and them. It's dangerous to send someone against John McCain who presents a contrast to what he represents. I've committed not to have any corporate lobbyists working in my White House.
Hillary: I'm not in favor of corporate lobbyists, but I'm not in favor of these artificial distinctions. This becomes really hard to take. I think I'm independent and tough enough to deal with anybody.
Edwards: When someone gives you millions and millions of dollars, they expect something.
Hillary: Trial lawyers have given you millions of dollars.
Edwards: To stand up for little guy. We have a real difference on this.
Hillary: No, we don't have real difference. I stand for public financing. Barack has lobbyists, John has lobbyists working hard for him all these years. You've got to say no. Lobbyists represent interests paying the lobbyists.
Obama: Nobody's hands are perfectly clean in politics. PAC and lobbyists money as major way of driving your campaign. Issue of national security...you claim you're best prepared, I fundamentally disagree with that. Way to take on John McCain...someone who can serve as a strong contrast, overcome politics of fear in this country. Keep American people safe. I would not hesitate to strike against anyone who would do us harm. Describe new foreign policy that says I will meet with our friends and enemies. Never fear to negotiate. Don't play into same fearmongering, that plays on their battlefield.
Edwards: Requires something beyond short-term foreign policy of convenience. Need visionary foreign policy. Which way do young people go? That depends entirely on us. Foreign policy of belligerence, selfishness will drive them in other direction. America needs to be that light again.
I am pulling for Edwards to win the nomination, but I would be overjoyed if they were both on the ticket. It would be like having two JFKs.
Hillary Clinton represents the Democratic party I don't like - the party that makes deals with multinational corporations and ignores the working class.
Obama and Edwards represent the direction our country needs to go.
Obama: I don't think Dr. King would endorse any of us. He would call on American people to hold us accountable. Change happens from bottom up not top down. People organizing, mobilizing, agitating, that's the key to bringing about change. Power of American people to bring about change.
Hillary: Change comes from extraordinary efforts of American people. Dr. King understood this. People sitting in this audience - Lewis, Clyburn. Meeting of morality and politics. We are strongest when we lead with our values. Make MLK's legacy real.
Lowell: troll alert!
I have seen that one before. He is having a hell of a time quitting. This was a small story during the summer.
But all the same. that dude is a troll for sure.
Let's MOVE FORWARD with a DIFFERENT KIND of POLITICS!!! OBAMA for President!!!
You love Senator Obama and that is great. But if you want to change the tone, start being the change you want to see in the world.
Let me know I'll go dig some up.
Also, there were several times when Obama got "tag teamed" counterpunched by Edwards AND Clinton. Was Clinton attempting to buffet Edwards in effort to weaken frontrunner Obama's positions ? Obama understood what was going on as he mentioned that he must be doing well because of the "attacks". Overall, I thought Edwards was at his best tonight.
I must also point out a couple of things about Edwards since he decided to help with the tag team. First, it is far easier for him to try to go after both Clinton and Obama on their Senate record because he isn't there anymore. He decided not run again in 2004 so he has the benefit of having a dated record(anecdotal evidence suggests that he may have had a hard time winning a second term anyway). Second, he keeps saying he will do the best against John McCain and the other Republicans. This is simply misleading and to use Obama's words, not supported by the facts. Look at the RCP average for head to head match ups: http://www.realclearpolitics.c... . Obama generally does better than either one of them against any number of Republican candidates.
As far as Clinton goes, I am glad Obama finally fought back and didn't allow her(and Bill) to keep spreading misinformation and lies.