House Committee Kills "Gun Show Loophole" Effort

By: MikeSizemore
Published On: 1/18/2008 1:55:10 PM

One of the most controversial issues of the 2008 General Assembly went down quickly this morning in the House Militia, Police and Public Safety Committee. The effort to go after the  "gun show loophole" was addressed in two bills: H.B. 745 from Chuck Caputo and H.B. 592 from Dave Marsden. These two bills were combined in committee and promptly defeated by a 13-9 vote.

I have indifferent feelings on the "gun show loophole" issue entirely, but I wanted to alert the community of the developments of this legislation as well as how the committee undercut the families of victims who were heading to Capitol on Monday.

The Roanoke Times has more here.

UPDATE by Lowell:  Interesting angle here.


Comments



Bad link for Roanoke Times. (elevandoski - 1/18/2008 2:02:58 PM)
n/t


It's fixed. (Lowell - 1/18/2008 2:05:07 PM)
n/t


Voted Down (tvhost - 1/18/2008 2:31:59 PM)
"Seung-Hui Cho, the mentally ill Tech student who killed 32 people and himself, was able to buy his guns from licensed firearms dealers because information about his illness was not entered into the database used to conduct the instant background checks." From the Roanoke Times Article

He went to a LICENSED DEALER... Not a gun show. It was the courts & mental health system that failed not the gun dealer or the people that have the right to sell guns. That is why finally the mental health issue is getting attention.

I know if April 16th had never taken place the real mentally ill people would still just be out there and no one would care less about them, except their love one or their care givers. Now because of APRIL 16, 2007 MENTAL ILLNESS is on the front burner...



Is there any good reason NOT to close (Lowell - 1/18/2008 2:34:33 PM)
the gun show loophole?  Seems like it would be totally noncontroversial among legitimate gun sellers and buyers.  Why wouldn't we make the same rules apply to everyone?


depends on the way they check the background (WillieStark - 1/18/2008 6:10:07 PM)
If it is INSTANT check then it probably would have passed. As in they call a number and verify that the person is not a felon, or mentally ill and get the info right away.

The problem is that most gun shows don't sell a lot of guns. they sell mostly outdoor equipment and velvet paintings of elvis and NASCAR plates and memorabilia. It is hard to convince people that there are a lot of people there who are hell bent on arming criminals.

We need to get our federal office holders to fund a good background check database so we can get stuff like this passed.

This is a lose lose for Democrats. We lose the fight to get the bills passed and then we lose a lot of people who may vote Dem because the GOP exploits our stupidity.



Question WillieStark (Dianne - 1/18/2008 6:59:08 PM)
"We need to get our federal office holders to fund a good background check database..."  

Willie, is anything for the instant check d/b "in the works" (eg, an unfunded bill lying around somewhere)?  Are any of the feds sponsoring bills; if so, who?  

Lowell asks a very legitimate question.  



It is a legitimate question. (WillieStark - 1/18/2008 8:01:41 PM)
We tried to get the GOP to do this when they were in power and even had some NRA support for it. But Dems tried to overreach and we got screwed.

The hang ups, from what I understand, were on the amount of info we would have to have in the system to make it mandatory and also with the destruction of the search records in a required period of time..

We can't bring up the bill now though because the NRA won't sign on now that the Dems control congress.

Again. Dems are very stupid on this issue.

We can get moderate voters to forgive us for being pro choice because so many of them are. We can get them to let it go when  urban dems call for gun restrictions within their cities. We CANT get them to let BOTH of them go.

We need to leave this issue the hell alone and focus on good laws like the NRA endorsed Exile project.



TVhost (MikeSizemore - 1/18/2008 2:35:57 PM)
You're right to point out that he went to a licensed dealer, and that mental health issues are the real key here.  


Agree (DanG - 1/18/2008 2:37:39 PM)
The mental Health Issue is what's really important


Stop this from happening... (NGB - 1/18/2008 2:55:59 PM)
again is what is really important here.  Closing the gun show loophole is one way to prevent this from happening in the future and the Republicans killed it.


I thought the lesson we learned from Tech was... (Ben - 1/18/2008 5:36:55 PM)
Don't wait until after a tragedy and close only loopholes relating to that tragedy, but actually attempt to proactvely look at our laws and make changes before something bad happens.


Yes, that SHOULD have been the lesson (Lowell - 1/18/2008 5:46:09 PM)
But these are House Republicans we're talking about here...


Sound bite for Dems (maybe....I'm not an expert here) (Dianne - 1/18/2008 7:06:14 PM)
Would love to see this from our Democratic candidates this fall:

"Do you have a son or daughter that attends or will be attending college this year?  

So you must remember the VA Tech tragedy where over 30 young people were slaughtered?  

Did you know that the Republicans killed a bill that would have closed the gunshow loophole, so  criminals can't buy guns?

Democrats want to protect your right to own a gun but they sure want legislation that will keep guns out of the hands of criminals and closing that loophole could do just that."  



I get the impression... (elevandoski - 1/18/2008 3:19:26 PM)
That at gun shows in Virginia, there is a combination of vendor gun sellers and individual gun sellers.  As the law stands right now, the vendor gun sellers have to performed a background check on each of its potential buyers, but the individual seller doesn't. Why can't the individual seller be also required to a background check?  Is it an issue of training on how to read or do background checks?  Is it access to information or an issue of liability?  Aren't there ways to work around these issues so that indeed individual sellers are prevented from making sales without background checks?  

I noticed this line on a Gun Show website... Attention Gun Show Attendees....Do you need to know what type of ID you need to purchase a firearm from a Federally Licensed Dealer, as we have to turn down a lot of sales when people don't have these specific ID's?  If the dealers are having to turn folks away, they end up losing business to the individual sellers.  I would think they would therefore support elimination of the gun show loophole.  It would put them on a level playing field with their private dealer competition.    



Is there any hope for SB109 now? (elevandoski - 1/18/2008 3:23:49 PM)
n/t


Nice move by House Republicans, as always (Lowell - 1/18/2008 3:47:02 PM)
House Budget Conferee appointments lack proportional, regional representation

Richmond, VA-Yesterday, Speaker Bill Howell appointed the House Budget Conferees. The appointments made by the Speaker lacked proportional representation and left a vital region of the Commonwealth with no representation.

Out of six conferees appointed by the Speaker, only one Democrat was appointed. Even though Democrats comprise 44% of the chamber, they only constitute 16% of the House budget conference committee.

"For all their talk of preserving proportional representation, it rings a little hollow when they ignore that pledge in appointing the key budget conference committee," House Minority Leader Ward Armstrong said.

Also, the House Budget Conference Committee includes no representative from Northern Virginia either Democratic or Republican, the most populous region of the Commonwealth.

"Again, Northern Virginia is being left out in the cold by House Republicans," Delegate Kris Amundson said. "Northern Virginia deserves a House representative advocating for them in the critical budget conference committee. We can only hope that Northern Virginia Senate leaders will stand up for our region because House Republicans have not provided us the critical representation."



Looks familiar.... (MikeSizemore - 1/18/2008 3:53:01 PM)
Looks a lot like when they left out Western and Southwest Virginia Senators off of committee chairs in the Senate. Pretty bad in both cases.


I guess the most charitable case to be made (Lowell - 1/18/2008 4:02:16 PM)
is that each party is strong in different parts of the state (Democrats: urban/suburban; Republicans: rural), so they naturally tend to have a lot more members from those areas.  Having said that, I'd like to see geographic diversity, to the extent possible, from both parties.  We are, after all, one Commonwealth.


link pls? (elevandoski - 1/18/2008 4:28:45 PM)


This was a press release (Lowell - 1/18/2008 5:28:40 PM)
from the DPVA.


Well, isn't that special... (elevandoski - 1/18/2008 10:15:36 PM)
I didn't get any press release... poo...


Should have said House Democrats (Lowell - 1/19/2008 6:16:32 AM)
not DPV.  Sorry.


Wow that was quick (mkfox - 1/18/2008 4:02:06 PM)
I'd rather have them pass nothing at all than some stupid pro-NRA "compromise" bill with pro-gun concessions as was mulled earlier, such as letting conceal-carry on campuses.

Va Tech was Virginia's chance to lead the nation in public safety reforms, such as campus safety, mental health and gun violence. I'm sorry that all the momentum to close the background check databank gap and for mental health reform didn't carry over into this issue. Closing the gun show loophole doesn't affect law-abiding gun purchasers and dealers, and only reinforces existing law. Virginia lies along the Iron Pipeline of gun trafficking on the East Coast and should take seriously the plight of illegal guns and prohibited purchasers. We shouldn't have to wait for a tragedy to occur to implement reforms.



Father of student shot at VA Tech (Lowell - 1/18/2008 4:14:41 PM)
From the Washington Post:

After the vote, Andrew Goddard, whose son Colin was injured in the April 16 Virginia Tech shootings, said polls indicated broad support for background checks on people who buy weapons.

"I don't know why these people don't represent their constituents. I think they just represent the NRA," Goddard said, referring to the National Rifle Association.

[...]

Goddard said he and other family members of the victims of Virginia Tech will continue to pressure lawmakers to approve stricter gun laws in Virginia.

"We will only be energized by this," Goddard said.




It's true (mkfox - 1/18/2008 5:26:44 PM)
According to VPAP:

From the NRA Political Victory Fund:
$1,000, H. Morgan Griffith of Salem.
$750, Bill Carrico of Independence.
$500, L. Scott Lingamfelter, Prince William.
$250, Donald Merricks, Pittsylvania; Charles D. Poindexter, Franklin; Ben Cline, Rockbridge; Dave Nutter, Montgomery; Beverly J. Sherwood, Frederick.



Dude, (Silence Dogood - 1/18/2008 6:17:01 PM)
You can't buy a vote for $250.  If all it took was $250, we ought to be ashamed of ourselves for not bothering to show up with a check for $300 to ask them to vote the other way.  I could easily have have fronted the money to buy someone's vote for $300, and I imagine we could have found two more people to buy a vote a piece, too.  For less than $1,000 we could have flipped a 13-9 vote against to a 12-10 vote for the bill.

Except it just doesn't work like that because even the most immoral and corrupt legislator won't sell himself for what in campaign funds amounts to pocket change.



I don't think it's about the money (afausser - 1/18/2008 7:26:01 PM)
It's probably more about maintaining the appearance of being pro-gun. It's easy to generalize--"del ____ tried to make it harder for citizens to get guns" etc. Which is ridiculous. But I think that is what it is about, if anything.


A Lot More Scarier Things Go On At Gun Shows (HisRoc - 1/18/2008 7:30:02 PM)
I'm a life-long gun owner and an advocate of concealed carry for those who can meet the training and background check requirements.  However, I don't spend a lot of time at gun shows for the same reason that, even though I own a couple of cars, I have only been to a couple of auto show.

A little over ten years ago I was a divison chief on the Army Staff in the Pentagon.  Among other responsibilities, my division was charged with inventory policies for military small arms and their associated replacement parts.  I began to hear and read disturbing reports about military replacement parts that were finding their way into the gun show vendors offerings, parts that would allow civilian small arms to be converted to military automatic weapons.  On a Saturday afternoon I visited a gun show in the Fredericksburg area.  What I saw astonished me and, although I haven't been to a gun show in many years, I have no reason to doubt that it has been changed.

First, the firearms purchase background checks:  the show had a mix of Federal licensed dealers and private sale dealers.  The show organizers had helpfully provided a computer center with dial-up capabilities where the licensed vendors could come to get background clearance for their sales.  ("Go have a beer or check out the new holsters while I walk over and get your approval.")  It struck me at the time that there was no reason that the private sale dealers couldn't use the same system.  Presumably, they would have to pay some kind of subscription fee.  So what?  I'm self-employed and even though I'm not Wal-Mart I still have to pay a business license tax in Fairfax county to do business.

Second, what worried me much more than the private sale dealers who could sell a weapon to anyone with a Virginia drivers license:  many of these "dealers" were also displaying "conversion kits," or the necessary parts to convert many civilian weapons to their military counter-part.  The most common was a kit to convert a Colt AR-15 semi-automatic rifle to a military M-16.  The kits came complete with detailed instructions and some of the "dealers" were even demonstrating how to perform the conversions.  Additionally, some were selling illegal 30-round capacity magazines, so called "banana clips."

I won't bore you with the details of how I went back to work on Monday morning and found myself totally powerless to clean up this nation-wide problem.  Suffice to say, there are some worse things happening at gun shows than somebody buying a handgun without a background check.  And, it is not just a Virginia problem.  Today, I wonder what Cho Seung-hui would have done with an M-16 and several 30-round magazines instead of a Clock 9MM and a Walther .22.



Sorry, I Meant Glock, not Clock... (HisRoc - 1/18/2008 7:35:48 PM)


This is very disturbing... (elevandoski - 1/18/2008 7:38:10 PM)
Thanks for sharing this information, HisRoc. Hopefully legislators are listening to you.


Some more background... (LAS - 1/18/2008 8:10:33 PM)

This Monday, MLK jr. day, there will be busloads of people coming to Richmond in support of Governor Kaine's leadership on this issue and in support of the VA Tech review panel's recommendations.
There will also be lots of Va Tech families there, ready to lobby their delegates and senators. They will also be testifying at the Senate hearing.

They were SUPPOSED to be testifying at the House Committee as well and THAT IS WHY the hearing was moved to today--so fewer VT families would be there. They DO NOT want to hear from these people. They DO NOT want ANYONE to hear from these people.

How can they treat the families this way, you wonder? Mostly because they don't give a sh*t about them or anybody else.

This committee has been acting this way for YEARS. If a bill was about to be introduced and there was, say, a group of uniformed policemen in the audience, they would make sure to cancel it or table it. They did this to our own FC Police chief over and over again until the one time he didn't come. THEN they voted on it.  

This is a goddammed disgrace and for deomcrats here to dismiss this so breeezily is a bigger one. So Cho didn't buy his gun from a gun show--so we should wait until another mass murderer does? Are we to make NO PROGRESS?

WTF is wrong with people?

Furthermore, the gentleman who states that there aren't a lot of guns sold at gun shows has plainly never been to one. It is a hair-raising experience, believe me. And, btw, there are unliscensed sellers advertising "No background checks" at their booths. Why do you suppose that is?

I'd love to show you photos of these gun shows, but, unfortunately, that is not allowed. And they are DEADLY serious about this prohibition--there are signs posted, people watching anyone who looks "suspicious" and they WILL confiscate cell phones with cameras if you are caught taking photos. If gun shows are so innocuous, mainly selling sports equipment and velvet paintings, why aren't people allowed to take photos? WTH are they so afraid of? Can't you guess?

I can tell you what the Republican delegates of this infamous committee are afraid of--the gun lobby; the NRA, the VCDL, the GOA--they are afraid of their money and the way they will mobilize voters if they step out of line for a moment--even for something as commonsense as this. At the same time, they don't want the average person to know how they voted. They don't want their constituents to realize what a bunch of a$$wipes they are. They certainly don't want any publicity involving parents and victims. So they pull this kind of crap and WE LET THEM.

I am glad to see that all the Democrats on the committee voted in favor--and I am grateful to the governor for putting himself on the line for this. It will be interesting to see what will happen on Monday at the Courts and Justice committee. There is a certain Democratic member on that committee with aspirations to be governor. That's going to call for an awful lot of votes coming out of Northern Virginia. It's going to mean an awful lot of NoVa fundraising. I hope he remembers that.  



SB109 in Courts of Justice on Mon. Jan. 21? (elevandoski - 1/18/2008 8:34:34 PM)
Sorry to be so dense...

But is the companion Senate Bill SB109 (Henry Marsh, patron) scheduled for Courts of Justice (Henry Marsh, chair) on Monday?  Is that what you heard?

I heard Dems John Edwards and Roscoe Reynolds also need some  talking to.  Edwards is apparently basing his opposition on what he calls the "culture" of gunshows.  



Yes! (LAS - 1/18/2008 9:23:57 PM)
I hope the Democratic Senators stand by their governor.

Edwards' district includes Va Tech, btw.  



Stop trying to capitalize on the VT tragedy (WillieStark - 1/19/2008 1:31:05 AM)
The fact that you are trying to take what happened at VT and apply it to a totally different situation is horrible. SHAME.

We can have a discussion of what is going on with our gun laws without this.

I remind Tim Kaine of his promise as well during his campaign.

NO NEW GUN LAWS. PERIOD.

Keep your promise Governor. Don't let reactionaries control your agenda. Republican or Democrat.  



tell you what... (LAS - 1/19/2008 2:53:53 AM)
Why don't you tell that to the parents and family members yourself?

Background checks for EVERYBODY. Period.

Dude, that isn't reactionary. It's called progress.  



How is closing a loophole in existing law (Lowell - 1/19/2008 6:03:07 AM)
a "new gun law?"  Right, it's not.


you are WRONG (WillieStark - 1/19/2008 12:57:35 PM)
that is not opinion. It is a new law. It even had numbers before it was combined into one. 745 and 592. There is no law now against individuals selling guns without doing the background check. This law would be a new law.

If you don't believe me then ask a lawyer.



Technically you're correct (Lowell - 1/19/2008 1:01:59 PM)
but conceptually, I stand by what I said.  Passing a new law to close a loophole in existing law is basically fixing a mistake in a job that was done incorrectly or inadequately the first time.  It's not "new" in that sense at all, although it requires "new" legislation to accomplish the objective, yes.


I heard LuAnn McNabb's testimony was incredible!!!! (Used2Bneutral - 1/18/2008 9:30:10 PM)
the VT parents group scrambled a reasonable group to support the Caputo/Marsden bills, but to no avail.....