My name is Kenneth Bernstein. On various electronic fora I am known as Teacherken. Much of my life has been an inchoate search for meaning. During my almost 59 years of life I spent time in a variety of religions. While I am now officially a member of the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers), I have at various times attended regularly at synagogues (Reform, Conservative and Orthodox), been an active member of churches (Episcopalian and Orthodox Church in America), received a masters degree from a Roman Catholic seminary, taught comparative religion in synagogue, church and public high school. As I write this I sit in a room full of books on religion. Trained as a musician much of the music I love is derived from people's dedication to their faith, and I have served as a choir director in the Orthodox Church.
In my own search for meaning I have spent a summer in an Episcopalian Benedictine monastery, and had several extended stays on Mount Athos in Greece, where for almost a decade my personal spiritual father was the abbot of one of the monasteries. My wife --who is an active Orthodox Christian who is pro-life in every sense (including opposing the death penalty) as well as an ardent environmentalist -- and I were married in an Orthodox church ceremony. I do not believe that any reasonable person could consider us hostile to people of faith.
I am officially an independent, as I live in Virginia, which does not have party registration. I have voted for a few Republicans for local office over the years I have lived here, but I have never campaigned for anyone except Democrats. I consider myself quite liberal / progressive on most issues, although I do believe in fiscal responsibility in government. Thus the two presidential candidates about whom I have been most excited were both social liberals who were fiscal conservative, Fritz Hollings and Howard Dean.
Perhaps because I teach government, I am appalled by the misinterpretation of our Constitutional tradition that I hear from people like Tom Delay and Bill Frist, or from people who claim to be Christian. This nation was founded on principles of the enlightenment, with a conscious effort by most of the important founders to separate the government from religion, and thereby to protect religion from government. It is worth noting that even before the Constitution we had a strong tradition of this separation. When states wrote constitutions in 1776 to replace their colonial charters, many, like that of Pennsylvania, guaranteed religious freedom, that document near its beginning stating
That all men have a natural and unalienable right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their own consciences and understanding: And that no man ought or of right can be compelled to attend any religious worship, or erect or support any place of worship, or maintain any ministry, contrary to, or against, his own free will and consent: Nor can any man, who acknowledges the being of a God, be justly deprived or abridged of any civil right as a citizen, on account of his religious sentiments or peculiar mode of religious worship : And that no authority can or ought to be vested in, or assumed by any power whatever, that shall in any case interfere with, or in any manner controul, the right of conscience in the free exercise of religious worship.
The Constitution itself does not mention God, and clearly states in Article VI that no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
As one who has seriously studied the Bible, I resent those who quote selectively, who use distorted translations, who ignore the clear import. I fail to see how anyone who would call themselves Christian could ignore the life of the Jesus of Nazareth who was criticized for dining with tax collectors and sinners. I am shocked at those who would prescribe harsh penalties for those they claim violate "God's laws" when Jesus challenged them by saying that only those who were themselves without sins should cast stones at the woman taken in adultery, or who challenged those condemning others for motes to look at the beams in their own eyes. And I cannot imagine that someone can consider themselves Christian when acting, saying, or implying that those who suffer in life because of poverty or hunger or nakedness or imprisonment have only themselves to blame when the clear words of Jesus in Matthew 25 is that how we will be measured will be by how we acted towards "the least of these" whom he calls his brethren.
My purpose in this message is not to engage in a bible quoting -- or Constitution quoting -- contest. As a person who believes deeply I want my religious beliefs to be free from government interference. Lincoln told us that as he would not want to be a slave neither would he want to be a slaveowner. I apply that as follows: I am a member a tiny religious minority, and I was born into a religious tradition that has been subject to discrimination and far worse. I value the protection offered me by our Constitution. As I would not want to be be oppressed because of my beliefs or what others might consider by unbelief, neither would I wish to impose my beliefs on others.
To any politician or those who seek political influence who wishes to impose one particular view of morality and religion, I say you are not only not acting an an American fashion, you are not acting in a Christian fashion. In your attempts to impose or mandate your beliefs you admit your fear that your ideas will not have appeal on their own. Perhaps that may be because those ideas are neither American nor Christian in their origin. Oh I grant that they may be developed by people who lived in the united States and who considered themselves Christian. But there are almost two billion Christians of various denominations around the world, and what you express would be alien to most of them. And as a student of history I know that Founders like Washington, Jefferson, Madison, and Franklin, to name just a few, would absolutely reject what you claim was their intent in the establishment of our system of government.
As a liberal, one influenced by the teaching of both the Jewish and Christian bibles, I know that to live a faith based on either or both of those documents requires humility -- men do not, after all, have the mind of God. Such a life requires a recognition of our responsibility as individuals and as a society for those not well off. Such a life could not find support for the doctrine of unfettered capitalism that offers no concern for the poor -- after all one Mitzvah for the Jew was to leave the corners of the field unharvested so that the poor might have something to eat. There is no justification in either "Testament" for greed, for self-aggrandizement and justification, for seeking power in order to accumulate wealth, or for seeking power merely to be powerful. Rather, both collections of spiritual wisdom offer many condemnations of those who mistreat the poor, or show a lack of hospitality to strangers, the Jewish Bible pointedly reminding its readers that they are not to deny justice to the sojourner in their land because they themselves were sojourners in the land of Egypt.
I will not condemn you if I think you are wrong. I will hope that you will allow the spirit of God as you know it to fill you with love. In the words of John, men will know that people are disciples of Jesus because they will love one another even as he has loved them. And I will not accept that you have any moral authority to condemn those with whom you disagree. That surely shows a lack of faith in a God who is all loving, who is thus capable of persuading all to turn to him.
I respect those whose belief may be different than mine. That is why I believe so strongly in the separation of Church (or synagogue, temple, pagoda, or mosque) and state. Insofar as you will advocate against such separation, I will oppose you. I will oppose you as violating the principles on which our nation was founded. And I will oppose you as violating the clear intent of the teaching of Jesus, and the far broader understanding of the Christian world both in much of the past and in much of the world today. It is precisely because I respect people of faith that I will do so.
Peace.
When such a choice is made, whether consciously or not, it seems to me that you are relegating the religion you do not choose as one that is, at best, second best to your choice. In other words, no matter how you may color or gloss over the reasons for your choice (e.g., this one suits me better; this one is so much better(how?); in this one I can eat bacon) you have made a judgment, that you consider the others as secondary in some respects to your own. And this to me is a problem, no matter how you present mitigating arguments.
As for respecting beliefs other than my own, my own are totally non-religious and I respect all those who believe in the principle of Get Off My Back, Leave Me Alone, Let Other Alone. It seems that no matter how lengthy the argument for freedom to others, the religious just cannot keep from getting in your face, from blue laws to abortion to what ever, using their bible as a command to action (Spread the Good News). And it never seems to end; look at the overt restrictions on people of color in the Book of Morman.
My argument finally is: If you want to believe in things you cannot see, touch, converse with, and so on, if you want to believe in rainmaking, fine. But don't tell me you and I need the irrational to get along. I and millions don't, we think that because there is nothing after this, except becoming nitrogen for a tree, that we might as well be decent to one another. And we believe in NOT trying to convert you to OUR faith, just that you should do likewise with yours.
This is not directed to you or any person, Ken, but is what I wish for.
I think this is an unfair and self-contradictory standard, because if one applies this same standard to any other choice, one is left incapable of making any choices at all. How can I determine my political beliefs if I do not decide that one position is better than another? I suppose one can follow the Objectivist route and declare that theirs is the conclusion of reason, and thus all other conclusions are flawed and deserving of no respect. But how do we know the conclusion we have reached is the correct one?
So, yes, I have decided that religions other than my own are incorrect or deficient in some way, just as you have decided that religions belief is irrational, and thus of secondary value to your own beliefs about the universe. Is this what you have a problem with? Because that is the implication of your post.
And being Catholic, I do touch, taste, see, etc... my God every time I go to Mass. But I guess we'll have to disagree on that. ;-)
Also, what is wrong in trying to convince others of what one believes to be the truth? Even atheists like Richard Dawkins do that, and I don't have a problem with that at all (I just disagree with him).
Matusleo
Ut Prosim
What kind of work do you do? Does that mean you think it is the best possible job, or it is a job that for you and your needs and skills makes sense?
You presume that the only basis for choosing one religion over another is a matter of ranking religions in some way. I don't.
I love Beethoven, Brahms, and Bach, but also Willie, Nina and Bruce. Similarly, I found much of value in the each of the religious traditions in which I spent time, and I am better able to understand them, and other religions. I am most at home where I am now, as a Quaker. I would not have been as at home had I not previously spent time in other religious traditions.
Peace.
2) I know many Christians whose belief does not include eternal fire, and some who do not believe in a literal Parousia.
there are hundreds of millions in this world who consider themselves Christians. The belief in the literal return of Jesus IS part of the early (and continued) creeds of the Church. There is NO MENTION of Hell or of eternal fire in the Nicene (as modified in Constantinople) creed, nor in the version of the Nicene Creed used in the Oriental Churches.
Therefore, your entire framing has problems.
In my meeting, in suburban Washington, we vary from people who devoutly and specifically Christian in their orientation to others who would describe themselves as Wiccan, Pagan, Buddhist, somewhat Episcopalian (but not necessarily Christian), Jewish, Muslim.
We have certain things in common, which is why we cohere.
And since I have said I am not a Christian, I don't know why you keep pushing this point you want to make.
I can tell you volumes about the differences among groups who consider themselves Christian but do not consider others who use the same appellation to qualify. Here I say I am not and yet you seem to want to insist that I am.
And since I am not attempting to convert you - or anyone else - it is irrelevant to my point about what might distinguish my belief set from yours. I choose to live my beliefs, and refer to them when appropriate to explain other things, not in isolation.
If what I write does not appeal to you on its own merits, that's fine - maybe it is not intended for you.
Peace.
Religion is becoming more enmeshed into politics every election and yet its taboo to criticize religious views. I find this problematic. You say its not intended for me, well, I'm an American just the same as you. It's incredibly presumptuous to suggest nonbelievers such as myself are not included in this debate, how arrogant! No, you're not trying to convert me, you just want to dismiss my point of view, as well as the 14% of Americans who have no religious affiliation. And the percentage goes up with younger generations. We are a growing minority who are finally starting to speak up.
Your murky style of religion is an elaborate, impenetrable shell-game designed to deflect free inquiry. It's very frustrating and tedious to have conversations like this but I won't just sit back and watch on the sidelines like the spectator you would have me be. I've got something to say about it too...
Thank you for your time.
I will tell you that on other sites you would find yourself getting troll ratings for how you are approaching this. That is not my style.
But since you do not seem to desire meaningful dialog, I will accept that and leave you to your own devices.
Peace.
If you read my earlier comments about "Religion and Politics", I hope this sheds more light on what I am trying to say.
At times when I hear George Bush talk about his "Awakening", I wonder if he actually had a similar experience, but completely misunderstood the gift he was given.
BUT, getting back to the what I believe teacherkin was posting is the Separation of Church and State. If that is what he was truly attempting to preach, then I totally believe in that separation. Recently I have gone so far as to join the UA, which stands for "American United for Separation of Church and State". I am not pushing, suggesting, or endorsing such an organization. It is just my belief that all Religions should practice their religion and leave the Governing of Laws to the Law Makers. If Religion is do their JOB as they say they do, then we will be ruled by the understanding GOD is attempting to instruct us in the teachings of the NEW TESTAMENT.
And may their be mercy on the souls who attempt to use those teachings for their own Political gain and Power.
Is their a JUDGEMENT DAY? No ones knows till the day comes. This unknown is one fear I will allow in my life and I will be aware of in the daily things I do.
Finally again I will say Separation of Church/Religion and Politics forever and live in love for all.