What's Right About Kansas!

By: Lowell
Published On: 10/19/2007 9:15:47 AM

Good for Kansas:

The Kansas Department of Health and Environment yesterday became the first government agency in the United States to cite carbon dioxide emissions as the reason for rejecting an air permit for a proposed coal-fired electricity generating plant, saying that the greenhouse gas threatens public health and the environment.

The decision marks a victory for environmental groups that are fighting proposals for new coal-fired plants around the country. It may be the first of a series of similar state actions inspired by a Supreme Court decision in April that asserted that greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide should be considered pollutants under the Clean Air Act.

Now what about Virginia?  Here is the altenative, by the way; is this amazing or what?!?


Comments



No new coal (TheGreenMiles - 10/19/2007 9:49:15 AM)
Let's hope Chespeake Climate Action Network's campaign against Virginia's plans to build new coal plants succeeds, you can read more about it here.


In short, we should never build another coal-fired (Lowell - 10/19/2007 10:28:15 AM)
plant in the United States again.  Period.  The stuff is destroying the planet.

It's time for this instead.



what are we saying here (JScott - 10/19/2007 11:13:38 AM)
What are we saying? Haven't we been saying that we need to get off the dependence of other nations for commodities like oil. Look I am not for the coal plants of yesterday but do we not have the technology to make this area better, safer and environmentally sounder? I'm baffled bevcause people talk about this like its all unrelated parts. We surely need coal as part of the picture as we need solar and wind technology as well. No one wants to talk about nucluer, though I believe we will be expanding the Lake Anna facility here in Virginia, because as HRC puts it we are concerned about he waste aspect. And yet they have not been so concerned about building aircraft carrrier after aircraft carrier with nucluer power. Gee where do we put our carriers waste, if it is even an issue. And FYI you want to loose WV, KY, TN and the southwestern portions of VA keep going with a non-coal initiative. Heck we have already gone after the tobacco industry in the South, why not go after the coal industry as well I guess.


Just to be clear, (Lowell - 10/19/2007 11:23:49 AM)
you advocate a planetary catastrophe?  And spare us the false dichotomies, such as that we can EITHER have energy independence OR a healthy environment.  No, we can have both, and we know exactly how to do it -- energy efficiency, clean renewables, cogeneration, advanced biofuels (e.g., algae), and even "nucluer" as you spell it (or "nuclear" as the rest of us do).  But how on earth does coal fit into this picture?  Currently, we import oil primarily to fuel our vehicles; are you advocating using COAL to fuel our vehicles?  And please don't tell me you take coal-to-liquids seriously.


is this not what Gore advocated (JScott - 10/19/2007 12:27:47 PM)
Is this not what Gore advocated....carbon limit technology on coal plants which no one in the world has in place today. So we do not have the technology to do it and he advocates that we need to do it in his movie....I am not trying to be an arse but I'm confused here with excatly who it is that is promoting dichotomies.
Lowell you lose me everytime on the economics. You may make the political points but please you fail to address just what is coal provides. You focus on oil of course because of the easy target regarding the ME but 67% of the global steel production in done through Basic Oxygen Furnaces (BOF) where about 630kg of coal ir required to produce 1,000kg of steel. The other 33% of the global steel is produced by Electric Arc Furnaces(EAF) which require the use of electricity generated from coal powered stations. 46% of all US generated electricity comes from coal. 90% of our fossil fuel reserves (coal,oil,natural gas) are coal based. Most third world countries rely on coal to produce virtaully all of its electricity capacity and by the way coal is being considered to be the best bet for synthetic oil and gas application by 2030. Based on the economical scale COAL is indispensible for products of stell and electricity and 2/3 of our caol is transported by rail throughout America. We have virtaully lost our steel manufacturing base in America and now you advocate this against our coal industry. Lowell with all do respect do you even realize how many JOBS we are talking about here. Thats not "false dichotomies" its having a grasp for the impacts of your advocacy.


The economics of this are clear. (Lowell - 10/19/2007 12:34:47 PM)
The future is in a sustainable, non-carbon-based, non-fossil-fuel economy.  That's where the jobs are too, big time. 


By the way, please tell me how we cut carbon emissions (Lowell - 10/19/2007 12:36:23 PM)
80%, as we need to do, while still producing and consuming coal? 


perspective and debate (JScott - 10/19/2007 1:08:08 PM)
Is not your 80% number a perspective and not a fact. I'm not sure we know what the number is. I hope all this is still up for debate from a scientific perspective or have we all but closed the books on climate change regarding the research. Look, I am on board with many of the things regarding global warming but the infrastructure on a global basis is not there to meet the proposition regarding coal. I prefer to keep the politics out of the science as we study the issue. Anyone who feels we are out of the theoretical stage on much of debate has lost it regardless of who or what we support on the issue. Your jobs point is well taken, now we will just have to fund the training for the technological requirements for the undertaking and that could be an uphill battle if the same bloviating idiots remain in Washington.


The science is very clear on this (Lowell - 10/19/2007 8:26:21 PM)
An 80% reduction in carbon emissions is crucial.  Don't believe me?  Read the scientific reports.


66% of Americans are on the right side (PM - 10/21/2007 9:08:09 AM)
http://www.cnn.com/2...

According to the CNN poll,"most Americans blame emissions from cars and industrial plants as the primary cause of global warming and believe the United States should reduce levels even if other countries don't, a survey shows."  In short, "Sixty-six percent of Americans believe the United States should do what it can to reduce global warming, even if other nations ignore it."



No, we don't (TheGreenMiles - 10/19/2007 11:37:41 AM)
Do we have the technology to make coal environmentally friendly?  No, we don't.  Mountaintop removal is still a common practice.  Carbon capture and storage technology is still years or decades away -- if it's even feasible.

And of course you have to consider the economic impact of freezing or phasing out coal use.  But that impact is much smaller today than it used to be.  Coal mines used to employ over 19,000 people in Virginia, but today that number dropped to just 4,353 by 2003.  How many jobs would be created statewide by putting a solar panel on every roof and wind farms whereever feasible?  I'd have to think a lot more than 4,000.



and where do we propose (JScott - 10/19/2007 1:13:04 PM)
And where do you think we will rpose to put these windfarms. In reality wind energy is a great concept, but where will they go and on whose property. They certainly will not be allowed to go on State land I believe given the current laws and if they go to privatization I wonder what the real costs will be. Heck we got people opposed to drilling off the Chesepeake, I can't imagine what the proposal for wind farms will bring. I have always like the solar option and it would be great in the future if we could retrofit all State buildings with the technology to reduce the amounts of output on our grids. Now that would be something.


Where to put them? Here's a map. (TheGreenMiles - 10/19/2007 1:47:01 PM)
There's huge potential in both the Appalachians and in the Bay ...
http://rredc.nrel.go...


well (JScott - 10/20/2007 12:53:53 AM)
well could they put them in state parks? Or eill they use an easement on private individual lands or will they use imminent domain????


Bad actors (tx2vadem - 10/20/2007 1:54:41 AM)
Tobacco is a product that kills people.  Should we not have gone after that industry?  It is okay that they profit by causing the ill health and, in a good number of cases, early death of their customers?  On top of that, they, the tobacco companies, knew that using tobacco caused cancer.  But they hid this fact and when the government revealed it, they sought to raise doubt.  I know you may be lamenting the tobacco farmer, but you know they are akin to cocaine and opium producers.  They are choosing to produce cash crops, benefiting themselves, at the expense of others' well being.  Though in the case of coca and poppy farmers, the U.S. spends money to burn their crops.  We choose a less harsh form of punishment for the tobacco industry.  What's to feel bad about there?  Do you feel bad that the government went after chemical companies like Dow and Union Carbide for having their employees scrub tanks of vinyl chloride monomer by hand knowing that it caused numerous ill health effects including cancer? 

On Coal Power Plants, they produce pollution besides carbon dioxide.  They produce sulfur dioxide (acid rain), nitrogen oxide (smog), carbon monoxide, volatile organic compounds, mercury, arsenic, and lead.  And do they pay for or even account for the effects this pollution has on the environment or surrounding communities?  And even if they did, would they really pay for it given the new hybrid "regulation" that the VA electric industry is under?  Since they don't, consumers never really see the true price of coal power.  All of coal power's byproducts are pretty nasty which is why people don't want to live near coal fired plants.  Despite what the coal industry would have you believe, there is no such thing as clean coal.  And much like tobacco, coal is a product that may provide us immediate pleasure, but hurts us in the long run.  We know this to be the case.  And like smoking, we must quit.

To your concern about economic disruption, that, at least for me, calls for innovation on the part of those affected communities.  And to the extent they need government assistance in the forms of guaranteed loans for new business ventures and money for job training, then we should provide that assistance.  The greatest natural resource we have as a nation is our own people and their tremendous combined power  Coal pales in comparison to that. 



Costs of VA Being Too Business Friendly (Matt H - 10/19/2007 11:16:35 AM)
Living near the smoke stacks of the Mirant coal-fired power plant, I tend to laugh at the efforts of the politicians to shut down the place.  Every Virginia politician is quick to point out with pride how business friendly the state is and how they will do anything to slash regulations of all kinds that restrict business.  Why, I ask, are they now so surprised to learn that they have no power left to control our companies?


Call Me (Gordie - 10/19/2007 10:56:34 AM)
a dreamer or irresponsible, but there must be some long range plan for coal, other then what we are using it for today. This country and others have too much of it for there not to be a better use then the present day usage.

Who is that scientist of the future that will discover that use?



Why? (Lowell - 10/19/2007 11:13:12 AM)
I don't understand why there "must be some long range plan for coal."  A long-range plan for cutting carbon emissions 80% and stopping catastrophic global warming?  Yes. A long-range plan for energy efficiency and clean renewables?  Definitely, A long-range plan to transition towards a sustainable economy?  Absolutely.  But a long-range plan for coal?  Why?


because (JScott - 10/19/2007 1:20:18 PM)
Because coal is one of our nations greatest resources second only to water and we all know about the concerns for water quality in the future. Other than American ingenuity, I have a hard time thinking of anyhting that drove industrialization more so than coal. Of course we need a plan for coal or it will simply go by the way of US oil, yes US oil, the capacity of which we refuse to explore and drill for in our country while Canada reeps the benefit as it continues to bring its producution along. It has always amazed how Canada has greatcapacity and Mexico does as well, but the US in the middle is treated like it doesn't from a political perspective.


Not a Petroleum Expert, but... (desfido - 10/19/2007 2:52:08 PM)
my understanding is that it is due to the fundamental geological differences between the three countries. Basically, you're more likely to find oil in certain kinds of geological settings, and it's only practical to extract under certain circumstances. While I am not very familiar on a detailed level with the geology of Canada or Mexico, I believe Canada has a lot more unmetamorphosed shales (one of the relevent types of rock) of an appropriate age and setting than we do (and further, the structural evolution of the Canadian shield is just overall better, as I understand it, than most of what's happened in the US in the geologic past). My knowledge of Mexico's reserves is even sketchier, so my comments are even less likely to be useful.

Perhaps you are in a similar situation. In which case, you should take a look at a geologic map of North America. I think even without a good understanding of geology, a geologic map will make it pretty clear that despite being next to each other, the countries are very different. Just looking at one, the bits of Canada with oil, like I suspected, are a lot larger and older, and seem to have be relatively inactive tectonically for quite some time compared to similar rocks in the US. What's going on Mexico is more complicated, but the only bits that seem similar to the US (to my eye) are (surprise, surprise) places like Texas, where we already know about much of the oil.

Regardless, while the US does have some oil, it is insignificant next to our demand. A friend of mine who is working in the oil industry in the US (former roughneck, moving to a more exploration-type job) recently mentioned that his company currently expects it to remain economically viable for them to produce oil in the US for about 10 more years (to understand why that might be, take into account that he also told me that a good well in the US produces about 1000 barrels a day; in the Middle East, they generally shut down wells that don't produce at least 5000 barrels a day, because it's not worth the trouble).

On the issue of coal: just because we have a lot of something, doesn't mean that we should necessarily use it. Now, frankly, I suspect that alternative uses of coal will arise, or current alternatives will become more prominent. However, that's something that will be best determined by the market, I suspect -- and the coal mining industry can distribute funding for research if they want to tweak the market in their favor.



potential (JScott - 10/20/2007 1:00:19 AM)
How can we have a candid discussion about potential capacity when they are not even allowed to drill. Why is it LA is left with the burden alone for our significant oil producution. I was informed on another blod that CA potentially had more off the coast than LA and TX and Mexicos Gulf areas combined based on studies. So what are we to believe? I tend to believe that LA can't be the only area where we can increase our own capacity. If people really do want to get us off foriegn oil why are we not seeing a push against CA and others.


We need an extra 12 million barrels a day of oil production (tx2vadem - 10/20/2007 1:59:15 AM)
to end our dependence upon imports.  Have you seen an estimate of untapped domestic resources that fills that gap?


I worked a tthe Energy Department for 17 years (Lowell - 10/20/2007 8:24:16 AM)
I have never heard a serious oil analyst who believes we can drill our way out of our problems.  This issue has been discussed and discussed, and what you're arguing simply has no merit.  I would suggest that you do some research, because frankly, so far you've been wrong on everything you've said in this thread (on coal and on oil).


Also, you continue to ignore the environment (Lowell - 10/20/2007 8:29:17 AM)
Again, I ask you, how are we going to cut carbon emissions 80% or 90% within 30 years in order to prevent an environmental catastrophe?  By producing MORE carbon-intensive coal and MORE carbon-intensive oil?  Yeah, that sounds like a GREAT plan.  Not.

Look, we all know the answers, so let's stop wasting our time "debating" the non-solutions.  The answers are:

*ENERGY EFFICIENCY!!!
*Renewables like wind and solar
*Advanced biofuels that produce 10, 20, 100 times more energy than they consume.
*Safe nuclear power, assuming that we can deal with the storage and proliferation issues.

More oil exploration in the US?  We're already doing that in the Gulf of Mexico and elsewhere, but it's not going to solve our addiction to foreign oil and it's not going to save the ice caps from melting.  So much for that "solution."



drill our we out (JScott - 10/20/2007 1:25:28 PM)
No one is suggesting we drill our way out entirely. What is needed as you suggest is a comprehensive plan to get us of our dependence which includes our own oil capacity along with the other options of biofuels, solar, wind etc.
The facts on coal are clear that were listed. if you would like to dispute the numbers regarding STEEL and ElECTRICITY I would like to see you facts and where they are from. I respect that much of this debate stems from a desire to clean up our environment and coal of course is an easy target because of its byproducts but the advocacy of eliminating coal plants and use of coal power all the while we are advocating reducing oil dependence seems displaced at the current time given the fact we have not seen the technology as iof yet that could help clean some of this up. My point was simply you cannot take things off the table and coal is a vital resource with regard to steel. It seems to me if you endorse this view than you simply have no desire of the U.S. to rebuild its manufacturing base that has been lost in the last twenty years. I am sure that the folks in Michigan and Ohio will certainly be pleased (snark? You can't do that without coal or the electricity generated from coal today so are we to wait for technology or wait for people to wake up and see the true benefits of nuke power. I guess France is good enough example for you for healthcare but not power. 80% of the country uses nuke power. Why have you removed that as an option in your plans for cleaning up the environment?


Thanks for putting words in my mouth (Lowell - 10/20/2007 2:51:24 PM)
"I guess France is good enough example for you for healthcare but not power. 80% of the country uses nuke power. Why have you removed that as an option in your plans for cleaning up the environment?"

I never "removed" nuclear "as an option," and in fact am very much open to it (as I've said a million times) if the issues of waste disposal, safety and proliferation are taken care of.  In general, I disagree with the entire thrust of your argument that we need coal because the technology isn't there, etc.  To the contrary, what we've got now is a massive market failure in which the true cost of coal, including environmental impacts, is not included.  Why don't we try pricing fossil fuels with all externalities included, then see whether renewables -- let alone energy efficiency!!! -- are competitive.

Finally, with regard to the issue of "energy independence," that concept is essentially meaningless; what, are we going to revoke comparative advantage and the benefits of trade?  The issue is that our heavy consumption of oil complicates our foreign policy, particularly in the Middle East, and ends up sending money to countries and groups that hate our guts.  One analyst called oil the "devil's excrement," and for good reason -- it corrupts everything it touches.  Let's get off of it.  But let's NOT replace it with coal, exacerbating ANOTHER severe problem (global warming) while attempting to solve the other one (dependence on oil imports from unfriendly regimes).  That wouldn't be too bright, to put it mildly.



US Oil (tx2vadem - 10/20/2007 12:54:47 AM)
The United States is the 3rd highest oil producer in the world.  Only Saudi Arabia and Russia top our oil production (see EIA stats).  As you say, we refuse to allow drilling in all area of the United States and off all of our coastline.  But doing so would not satiate U.S. consumer's ravenous demand for petroleum products, which is over 20 million barrels a day.  Our demand is nearly three times the next highest user, China at 7 million barrels a day.  Drilling everywhere is not going to solve that problem.  I would not cry for the US Oil industry.  Just look at their 10-K filings with the SEC since 2001, they are making money hand over fist.  They have rewarded their investors like no few other sectors in our economy.  So, I'd say a little early for a lament.


the companies were not the issue (JScott - 10/20/2007 1:49:15 PM)
The oil companies of the US were not the issue here. It was debating the use of all of our options and one of the ways was to increase our own capacity thats all. Of Course we cannot go it alone, but I did not realize it was a whole or nothing thing. I thought we were talking about exploring options that could help us REDUCE our dependence on foriegn oil not eliminate it at this point because as you say we require too much today to go it alone but we could begin to impact as we move to 2030 when Canada and Mexico are expected to double capacity. My point is simply if we keep all our options developing in an environmental way as the technology comes on board and we increase our capacity through exploration and we move toward building or upgrading our nuke power like Lake Anna we can begin to put ourselves in a better position of reducing our Middle East imports and thus remove a big politcial dependence issue.
Saudi Arabia is the only ME country in our top 5 importers. We could begin to leverage our own capacity by 2030 along with Canada(currently 1.7 mb a day), Mexico (1.4mb a day) Venezuela (1.1 mb a day) and Nigeria 1mb a day). North Africa also represents a great capacity opportunity as Angola, Sudan, Guinea, Chad, Congo and Ivory Coast by 2030 with current studies. And of course no one wants to talk about Brazil which comes on line with 3.9 mb a day by 2010. Brazil is not even in the top ten of our current importers. The goal should be to reduce our ME imports through better trade and relations with other nations.
We cannot get there with just one thing but a comprehensive ,dedicated on balance with the environment is achievable but not by eliminating things like coal power.
My point to Lowell regarding STEEL is simply remember the issue over the armour for the vehicles in Iraq? Where is our steel capacity? Most is coming from South Africa and China. We cannot end our coal production in the manner proposed solely for the same reason the arguements over oil are so vaild. We will be exchanging one dependence for another. How would you feel about not having any steel production or manufacturing in America at all and the requirement of having to get it from the Far East? Do'nt you think that that in the future could be a problem both economically and politically? Steel is important to the industrial base and our economy and we cannot forget that. If we do we may just begin to lose some of our own political base as we move forward.


Employ the miners in one of the new energy industries (PM - 10/19/2007 9:59:33 PM)
Green Miles noted:

"Coal mines used to employ over 19,000 people in Virginia, but today that number dropped to just 4,353 by 2003.  How many jobs would be created statewide by putting a solar panel on every roof and wind farms wherever feasible?  I'd have to think a lot more than 4,000."

A well planned fast transition out of coal should include a safety net for the miners.  (Empathy note: My dad ran a tavern across the street from the coal mines and I used to see black faced miners coming in after a day's work.  This was anthracite country.  The mining industry died there in the 50's and there were lots of hard times ahead.)

Someone like a Mark Warner has the brains and compassion to put together such a safety net plan.  Create incentives for the new energy providers to locate in the coal mining regions, e.g., the miners would now be employed in fabrication of new energy machinery.  This is not only compassionate, but removes the political opposition to smart energy within the coal areas.  It should be an easy sell -- it's a deplorable way to make a living and no miner I ever met thought it was a good job.

Political footnote: in the days when Republicans were good guys, people like Republican Governor Bill Scranton of Pennsylvania worked on plans to diversify the job base in northeastern Pennsylvania after the mining industry died.  Too bad he lost the nomination to Barry Goldwater (it wasn't even close.)